King Carl's Drafting Success. The Planet Decides. - Page 4

**BigRedChief** · 03-19-2005, 07:18 AM

Stolen from the chiefscoalition site and nychiefsfan.

You don't have to break it down like I did, but I was curious about our overall success, or lack of it, regarding our drafts. Overall, CP did better than what I thought (I thought it'd be a grade of "D"). He didn't do much better, but better...
I assigned a letter grade to each year, then added the letter grade's point value and divided it by 16 (# of years CP's drafted for us). My overall total average for CP was 2.01875, which is a "C". I tried to be as fair as possible.
If anyone gets really bored, use the following GPA scoring system to grade the overall draft:
A = 4.0
A- = 3.7
B+ = 3.3
B = 3.0
B- = 2.7
C+ = 2.3 . . .
C = 2.0
C- = 1.7
D+ = 1.3
D = 1.0
E = 0
King Ego's 1st three rounds selections since he took over:
1989
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 4 Derrick Thomas DE Alabama
2 32 Mike Elkins QB Wake Forest
3 60 Nasrallah Worthen WR North Carolina State
GRADE:A-
If the only person CP drafted in '89 was DT, he would get an A, but he wasted the two following picks on losers. Props to getting DT.
1990
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 13 Percy Snow ILB Michigan State
2 40 Tim Grunhard C Notre Dame
4 96 Fred Jones WR Grambling
GRADE:C- With the 13th overall pick, we get Percy Snow??? :blink: Great move CP :angry: Grunny was a very good selection, so props on getting him.
1991
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 21 Harvey Williams RB Louisiana State
2 50 Joe Valerio G Pennsylvania
3 77 Tim Barnett WR Jackson State
GRADE: D
1992
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 20 Dale Carter CB Tennessee
2 40 Matt Blundin QB Virginia
GRADE: A- Carter was an awesome selection, but then we got Blundin

1993
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
3 74 Will Shields G Nebraska
GRADE: A Shields has been a superstar for us. Props to CP

1994
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 25 Greg Hill RB Texas A&M
2 58 Donnell Bennett FB Miami
3 92 Lake Dawson WR Notre Dame
3 96 Chris Penn WR Tulsa
GRADE: D
1995
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 31 Trezelle Jenkins T Michigan
3 81 Tamarick Vanover WR Florida State
3 97 Troy Dumas LB Nebraska
GRADE D: Vanover was a good KR/PR, that's it.
1996
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 28 Jerome Woods FS Memphis
2 58 Reggie Tongue SS Oregon State
3 68 John Browning NT West Virginia
GRADE B: Woods and Tongue were arguable CP's best 1st 2 picks up to this point.
1997
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 13 Tony Gonzalez TE California
2 47 Kevin Lockett WR Kansas State
GRADE: A- Gonzo was a great selection. Lockett: not-so-great
1998
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 27 Victor Riley T Auburn
3 88 Rashaan Shehee RB Washington
GRADE: D Riley was mediocre, at best. Shehee was a joke.
1999
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 14 John Tait T Brigham Young
2 54 Michael Cloud RB Boston College
3 75 Gary Stills DE West Virginia
GRADE C+: Remember reading about CP swearing at Tait during negotiations...and Tait's a Mormon. Dumbass. Stills is a great ST player.
2000
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State
2 54 William Bartee CB Oklahoma
3 85 Greg Wesley SS Arkansas-Pine Bluff
GRADE: D It would have been an F is they didn't draft Wesley, but if you look at what a waste the 1st 2 picks are, it would arguably be an F.
2001
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
3 75 Eric Downing DT Syracuse
3 77 Marvin Minnis WR Florida State
GRADE F Downing is about as worthless as Sims. Minnis??

2002
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 6 Ryan Sims DT North Carolina
2 43 Eddie Freeman DE Ala.-Birmingham
GRADE: F- I wish there was a lower grade than F- :hmmmmmmm:
2003
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 27 Larry Johnson RB Penn State
2 47 Kawika Mitchell MLB South Florida
3 92 Julian Battle CB Tennessee
GRADE B Priest's questionable hip saved CP this year. Mitchell and Battle havent blossomed into the players we hoped.
2004
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
2 36 Junior Siavii NT Oregon
2 61 Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh
3 93 Keyaron Fox OLB Georgia Tech
GRADE C+: Siavii is still raw. Wilson might be a great player, but we really needed D on this pick. Fox was rarely used outside of ST.

Mark M · 03-21-2005, 12:32 PM

I think you also have to take into consideration who was still available, as well as compare it to other teams around the league. Grading on a curve, so to speak.

Also, one must include ALL the draft picks from every round, otherwise you are judging performance with incomplete data.

So, to use just the first three picks of each draft, I'd have to give Carl and Co. a D+.

When you factor in the other rounds, a straight C.

MM
~~

BigChiefFan · 03-21-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark M

I think you also have to take into consideration who was still available, as well as compare it to other teams around the league. Grading on a curve, so to speak.

Also, one must include ALL the draft picks from every round, otherwise you are judging performance with incomplete data.

So, to use just the first three picks of each draft, I'd have to give Carl and Co. a D+.

When you factor in the other rounds, a straight C.

MM
~~

Mark,
The defense sucks and consists of mostly drafted players. The offense kicks ass and consists of mostly FAs. That's all the research I need to do, to know the FO has been awful, especially on the first day, and that day counts a hell of alot more, IMO. Especially considering the salaries those guys make. I'd much prefer to be great on day one and lousy on day 2.

Mark M · 03-21-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan

Mark,
The defense sucks and consists of mostly drafted players. The offense kicks ass and consists of mostly FAs. That's all the research I need to do ...

Yet, in the 90's, the defense kicked ass with drated players (DT, Smith, Carter, etc.) and the offense sucked with FAs (Bono, Grbac, Alexander, etc.).

Different side of the same coin.

Quote:

to know the FO has been awful, especially on the first day, and that day counts a hell of alot more, IMO. Especially considering the salaries those guys make. I'd much prefer to be great on day one and lousy on day 2.

While I see your point, being lousy on day two is just as unacceptable as sucking ass on day one IMHO. Just look around the league and you'll see a ton of great players that were 2nd day picks.

MM
~~

BigChiefFan · 03-21-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark M

Yet, in the 90's, the defense kicked ass with drated players (DT, Smith, Carter, etc.) and the offense sucked with FAs (Bono, Grbac, Alexander, etc.).

Different side of the same coin.

While I see your point, being lousy on day two is just as unacceptable as sucking ass on day one IMHO. Just look around the league and you'll see a ton of great players that were 2nd day picks.

MM
~~

I won't let you give Carl credit for Neil Smith.

I wouldn't say losing on day TWO is JUST as unacceptable because the guys on day one are SUPPOSED to be IMPACT players and they also COST more money than the 2nd day guys. Landing guys on the 2nd day is an added bonus. I see your point, but I do think there is a difference and it's not that I prefer one over the other, doing well on both days would be optimum.

Mark M · 03-21-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefFan

I won't let you give Carl credit for Neil Smith.

Whoops ... sorry. Don't know why, but I always forget that he was drafted before Carl go here.

Quote:

I wouldn't say losing on day TWO is JUST as unacceptable because the guys on day one are SUPPOSED to be IMPACT players and they also COST more money than the 2nd day guys. Landing guys on the 2nd day is an added bonus. I see your point, but I do think there is a difference and it's not that I prefer one over the other, doing well on both days would be optimum.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see day two as vital to building a team.

If you get 1 good players on day two, then you've done less than well. If you get 2, outstanding. If you get three, then you're a freaking genious (CP spelling).

If you get one on day two, then it's also unacceptable. Two is acceptable, three is outstanding, and four is again genius status.

MM
~~

**BigRedChief** · 03-22-2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nmt1

I realize that your whole purpose for posting this analysis is to piss and moan about Carl Peterson but I think it would be interesting to have a comparison of all teams regardless of management. I'm not interested in defending or indicting anyone, I'm interested in how much of a crap shoot the draft really is.

Why don't you get on it and find or do the other teams draft analysis?

BigChiefFan · 03-22-2005, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark M

Whoops ... sorry. Don't know why, but I always forget that he was drafted before Carl go here.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see day two as vital to building a team.

If you get 1 good players on day two, then you've done less than well. If you get 2, outstanding. If you get three, then you're a freaking genious (CP spelling).

If you get one on day two, then it's also unacceptable. Two is acceptable, three is outstanding, and four is again genius status.

MM
~~

Like I said, the 2nd day is important, but let me ask you this... Do you expect more from a 1st rounder than a 7th rounder? If you answered yes, than you can see where I'm coming from.

nmt1 · 03-22-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Why don't you get on it and find or do the other teams draft analysis?

It would be an interesting study but, alas, time is not permitting.

htismaqe · 03-22-2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Yeah I forgot about that. I remember the thread talking about how we "improved" our draft personnel by getting the guy that engineered trading a whole draft for Rickey Williams.

To be fair and factual, Mike Ditka engineered the draft of Ricky Williams. Kuharich just obliged the wishes of his coach.

whoman69 · 03-22-2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nmt1

I realize that your whole purpose for posting this analysis is to piss and moan about Carl Peterson but I think it would be interesting to have a comparison of all teams regardless of management. I'm not interested in defending or indicting anyone, I'm interested in how much of a crap shoot the draft really is.

If such a comparison would be done it would be useless to compare us to what the Bengals and Cardinals did in the last decade. I compared our drafts to the Steelers, and they kicked our doors in. I would post a link but no search function.

nmt1 · 03-22-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoman69

If such a comparison would be done it would be useless to compare us to what the Bengals and Cardinals did in the last decade. I compared our drafts to the Steelers, and they kicked our doors in. I would post a link but no search function.

I'm sure they did. They have historically been one of the better drafting teams. In fact they engineerd what could be the best draft ever back in the 70's. Don't remember the year. EDIT: They picked Lynn Swann, Jack Lambert, Mike Webster, and John Stallworth in 1974.
I suspect if you compare us to the Patriots over the last 4 years, we'd get our doors blown off again.
No one is arguing that we've drafted well. I'd like to see how we did in comparison to the rest of the NFL, not just the bad or the good. I'd like to get a good perspective on the whole thing. My guess is that we're not in the top half of the league.

ChiefsCountry · 03-22-2005, 01:21 PM

Well alot of you aren't factoring in alot of factors in Carl's drafting. First of you we haven't drafted a Stud QB, RB, WR. How many first round picks have we spent on those positions? 4, 3 RB's and 1 WR. Williams and Hill would have been good players in Vermeil's offense but not in Marty's. Both showed flashes but they were Priest type backs and Marty wanted Okoye type backs. No QB's have been picked in the first round. We have a fair balance between offense and defense first rounders. Snow got hurt in a freak accident, we would have been a stud. Him and DT as linebackers would have been great. DT might have had even better career with a stud MLB next to him. Sly Morris showed some potential his rookie year, and that was with Clown Grbac throwing the ball to him. Another freak accident in practice. Morris could have been a good NFL WR. Jenkins was the biggest bust. He just sucked. Carter was a darn good corner. At the time only Deion was considered to be better than him. Screwing up the Jenkins pick made us pick Tait and Riley. They were good OT's. We let them go bc they wanted more money but for the most part they were solid. Shields and Gonzo are no brainers as good picks. Dawson and Penn could have been a good #2 and #3 WR combo. If we could have gotten a true #1 WR. They would have done good. Woods has been a solid S since his rookie year. He did have a pro bowl year. Browning, Tongue, Edwards, and Horn formed a darn good draft. Jury is still out on Sims. But in all honesty the drafts started to really suck was when Vermeil showed up. I would grade them at a C. Everybody is saying a F, but other than Vermeil's first year when was a year we really sucked. Every season we have been a playoff team or battling for a spot in the playoffs. It might not be great but we have been an average to above average team since 1989. That is a C.

crossbow · 03-22-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Look at the top line of the first post. Theses are not my grades but nychiefsfan's grades. He did all the work I just stole....um I mean borrowed it.

It is not called plagerism anymore, the new term is "research".

nmt1 · 03-22-2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoman69

If such a comparison would be done it would be useless to compare us to what the Bengals and Cardinals did in the last decade. I compared our drafts to the Steelers, and they kicked our doors in. I would post a link but no search function.

You've missed my point all together. If we're going to compare ourselves to the Steelers, shouldn't we also compare ourselves to the Cardinals and Bengals? Why is it OK to compare ourselves to the best teams and ignore the worst?
I'm not stupid, I know why we need only compare ourselves to the best drafters in many people's minds. It gives them a reason to piss and moan about Carl Peterson.
If one is interested in being fair and at least semi-objective, then one must factor in all data. Ask Gaz, he'll agree.

**BigRedChief** · 03-22-2005, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crossbow

It is not called plagerism anymore, the new term is "research".

If you give credit you get to steal it all anyway. Ain't America great!

View Poll Results: Whats your grade?
A	1	1.28%
B	4	5.13%
C	21	26.92%
D	42	53.85%
F	10	12.82%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

03-19-2005, 07:18 AM
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3189627 VARSITY	King Carl's Drafting Success. The Planet Decides. Stolen from the chiefscoalition site and nychiefsfan. You don't have to break it down like I did, but I was curious about our overall success, or lack of it, regarding our drafts. Overall, CP did better than what I thought (I thought it'd be a grade of "D"). He didn't do much better, but better... I assigned a letter grade to each year, then added the letter grade's point value and divided it by 16 (# of years CP's drafted for us). My overall total average for CP was 2.01875, which is a "C". I tried to be as fair as possible. If anyone gets really bored, use the following GPA scoring system to grade the overall draft: A = 4.0 A- = 3.7 B+ = 3.3 B = 3.0 B- = 2.7 C+ = 2.3 . . . C = 2.0 C- = 1.7 D+ = 1.3 D = 1.0 E = 0 King Ego's 1st three rounds selections since he took over: 1989 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 4 Derrick Thomas DE Alabama 2 32 Mike Elkins QB Wake Forest 3 60 Nasrallah Worthen WR North Carolina State GRADE:A- If the only person CP drafted in '89 was DT, he would get an A, but he wasted the two following picks on losers. Props to getting DT. 1990 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 13 Percy Snow ILB Michigan State 2 40 Tim Grunhard C Notre Dame 4 96 Fred Jones WR Grambling GRADE:C- With the 13th overall pick, we get Percy Snow??? :blink: Great move CP :angry: Grunny was a very good selection, so props on getting him. 1991 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 21 Harvey Williams RB Louisiana State 2 50 Joe Valerio G Pennsylvania 3 77 Tim Barnett WR Jackson State GRADE: D 1992 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 20 Dale Carter CB Tennessee 2 40 Matt Blundin QB Virginia GRADE: A- Carter was an awesome selection, but then we got Blundin 1993 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 3 74 Will Shields G Nebraska GRADE: A Shields has been a superstar for us. Props to CP 1994 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 25 Greg Hill RB Texas A&M 2 58 Donnell Bennett FB Miami 3 92 Lake Dawson WR Notre Dame 3 96 Chris Penn WR Tulsa GRADE: D 1995 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 31 Trezelle Jenkins T Michigan 3 81 Tamarick Vanover WR Florida State 3 97 Troy Dumas LB Nebraska GRADE D: Vanover was a good KR/PR, that's it. 1996 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 28 Jerome Woods FS Memphis 2 58 Reggie Tongue SS Oregon State 3 68 John Browning NT West Virginia GRADE B: Woods and Tongue were arguable CP's best 1st 2 picks up to this point. 1997 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 13 Tony Gonzalez TE California 2 47 Kevin Lockett WR Kansas State GRADE: A- Gonzo was a great selection. Lockett: not-so-great 1998 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 27 Victor Riley T Auburn 3 88 Rashaan Shehee RB Washington GRADE: D Riley was mediocre, at best. Shehee was a joke. 1999 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 14 John Tait T Brigham Young 2 54 Michael Cloud RB Boston College 3 75 Gary Stills DE West Virginia GRADE C+: Remember reading about CP swearing at Tait during negotiations...and Tait's a Mormon. Dumbass. Stills is a great ST player. 2000 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 21 Sylvester Morris WR Jackson State 2 54 William Bartee CB Oklahoma 3 85 Greg Wesley SS Arkansas-Pine Bluff GRADE: D It would have been an F is they didn't draft Wesley, but if you look at what a waste the 1st 2 picks are, it would arguably be an F. 2001 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 3 75 Eric Downing DT Syracuse 3 77 Marvin Minnis WR Florida State GRADE F Downing is about as worthless as Sims. Minnis?? 2002 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 6 Ryan Sims DT North Carolina 2 43 Eddie Freeman DE Ala.-Birmingham GRADE: F- I wish there was a lower grade than F- :hmmmmmmm: 2003 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 1 27 Larry Johnson RB Penn State 2 47 Kawika Mitchell MLB South Florida 3 92 Julian Battle CB Tennessee GRADE B Priest's questionable hip saved CP this year. Mitchell and Battle havent blossomed into the players we hoped. 2004 Rd Sel# Player Pos. School 2 36 Junior Siavii NT Oregon 2 61 Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh 3 93 Keyaron Fox OLB Georgia Tech GRADE C+: Siavii is still raw. Wilson might be a great player, but we really needed D on this pick. Fox was rarely used outside of ST.
Posts: 78,957

03-21-2005, 12:32 PM	#46
Mark M What time is it? Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: You tell me ... Casino cash: $9884900	I think you also have to take into consideration who was still available, as well as compare it to other teams around the league. Grading on a curve, so to speak. Also, one must include ALL the draft picks from every round, otherwise you are judging performance with incomplete data. So, to use just the first three picks of each draft, I'd have to give Carl and Co. a D+. When you factor in the other rounds, a straight C. MM ~~ __________________ ChiefsPlanet -- n. The place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.
Posts: 4,687

03-22-2005, 01:21 PM	#57
ChiefsCountry The Insider Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Lake of the Ozarks Casino cash: $2368752	Well alot of you aren't factoring in alot of factors in Carl's drafting. First of you we haven't drafted a Stud QB, RB, WR. How many first round picks have we spent on those positions? 4, 3 RB's and 1 WR. Williams and Hill would have been good players in Vermeil's offense but not in Marty's. Both showed flashes but they were Priest type backs and Marty wanted Okoye type backs. No QB's have been picked in the first round. We have a fair balance between offense and defense first rounders. Snow got hurt in a freak accident, we would have been a stud. Him and DT as linebackers would have been great. DT might have had even better career with a stud MLB next to him. Sly Morris showed some potential his rookie year, and that was with Clown Grbac throwing the ball to him. Another freak accident in practice. Morris could have been a good NFL WR. Jenkins was the biggest bust. He just sucked. Carter was a darn good corner. At the time only Deion was considered to be better than him. Screwing up the Jenkins pick made us pick Tait and Riley. They were good OT's. We let them go bc they wanted more money but for the most part they were solid. Shields and Gonzo are no brainers as good picks. Dawson and Penn could have been a good #2 and #3 WR combo. If we could have gotten a true #1 WR. They would have done good. Woods has been a solid S since his rookie year. He did have a pro bowl year. Browning, Tongue, Edwards, and Horn formed a darn good draft. Jury is still out on Sims. But in all honesty the drafts started to really suck was when Vermeil showed up. I would grade them at a C. Everybody is saying a F, but other than Vermeil's first year when was a year we really sucked. Every season we have been a playoff team or battling for a spot in the playoffs. It might not be great but we have been an average to above average team since 1989. That is a C.
Posts: 49,558