To Win, You Have to.... Lose?

jspchief · 03-04-2008, 10:01 AM

It seems like there's a bit of a trend in the last decade's list of Super Bowl Champions... Stinking it up for a season or two to get some of the key players on your championship team.

10 years ago, organizations like the Ravens and Rams built championship teams by sucking for multiple years... 3+ years worth of top ten picks has it's advantages.

The Colts did it by being the flatout worst in the league (Manning), but also added Freeney with a less than mediocre 6-10 record.

The Giants got their Manning the same way.

The Steelers had a fall from grace to land Roethlisberger.

Even the mighty Patriots dropped a 5-11 turd that netted them Seymour and Matt Light.

The Tampa Bay Bucs are the only team in recent history to hoist the Lombardi Trophy without really hitting a homerun with an early draft position.

Of course another common denominator has been how these teams drafted outside of round 1, and how they drafted outside of the top 15. You don't see them trading away first round picks or trading down to get Siaviis. Many of them have a steady string of very good 2nd round picks. And Many of them also have found a little gold in sleepers (Tom Brady comes to mind). They don't strikeout in round 1, and they get occasional clutch hits in later rounds.

So where the hell am I going with all of this?

It feels like the Chiefs have been treading water for the last decade. But have they really? Have they been on the decline the last few years, or are they actually righting the ship? Since the great draft depression that ended in Ryan Sims, the Chiefs have actually been pretty impressive in round 1. They have landed undeniable NFL starters in LJ and DJ, a promising DE in Hali, and a WR that looks like he could be something Chiefs fans haven't seen in red since the invention of the wheel. The only flop being Siavii. They've also landed some pretty impressive sleepers in the last few years with Allen and Page. Improvement from Pollard, and a showing by Tyler, McBride or both, and suddenly our drafts are starting to look downright respectable. And now we come into 2008 staring down the barrel of the draft that might just be the catalyst for sunshine beyond the looming clouds. The number 5 overall pick needs to be a homerun. He needs to be a guy that becomes synonymous with Chiefs success. But beyond that the 2nd round pick, which comes on the edge of round 1, needs to become a starter caliber player in short order.

There's little question this franchise is in a rebuilding mode. But I think the mistake fans are making is in thinking the rebuilding has just begun, when in reality it may have started 5 years ago. This is the year where we can add the keystone.

In an off-season full of the same tired teeth-gnashing about the GM, coaches, and talent, I'm seeing a glass that's half full with a pitcher poised to pour. Let's hope we don't spill this April.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 03-04-2008, 10:03 AM

Rep.

But you have to post again to get it, apparently.

Brock · 03-04-2008, 10:04 AM

Effin A Cotton.

**RealSNR** · 03-04-2008, 10:05 AM

I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Go and get your "hopeful" ideas out of here. This is the offseason, we're all about serious business.

**DaFace** · 03-04-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Rep.

But you have to post again to get it, apparently.

Right-click the rep icon and open the link in a new window.

Chiefnj2 · 03-04-2008, 10:09 AM

Herm is going to live and die with the draft just like Vermeil did.

Herm is also going to need to start hitting on some of his veteran acquisitions. Edwards, Reed, Law, Nap, Turley and Terry have hurt.

siberian khatru · 03-04-2008, 10:13 AM

Outstanding post.

This, I think, is the money graph:

Quote:

Of course another common denominator has been how these teams drafted outside of round 1, and how they drafted outside of the top 15. You don't see them trading away first round picks or trading down to get Siaviis. Many of them have a steady string of very good 2nd round picks. And Many of them also have found a little gold in sleepers (Tom Brady comes to mind). They don't strikeout in round 1, and they get occasional clutch hits in later rounds.

Rooster · 03-04-2008, 10:14 AM

You are not allowed to write positive ideas or opinions. All you are allowed to do is bitch and moan about things you have no control over.

jspchief · 03-04-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

Herm is going to live and die with the draft just like Vermeil did.

Herm is also going to need to start hitting on some of his veteran acquisitions. Edwards, Reed, Law, Nap, Turley and Terry have hurt.

IMO, Herm has been very solid in his drafting so far. 2006 has the potential to be an excellent draft.

As for the FA signings, I don't know how much he's hampered by spending limits, but the overall strategy in who's being targeted has been disappointing.

**Iowanian** · 03-04-2008, 10:28 AM

There is merrit to what you are saying, but I think there is a fine line.

Those teams who have struggled for too many seasons and didn't get over the hump, I feel are hampered because they suck. Why?

When picking consistently in the top 5-10, teams end up with such high salaries at a few positions, that they don't have the funding to surround those highly paid players with quality talent. They have little depth and sub-par talent on the bottom half of their rosters.

I'll point to teams like the Bengals of the 1990s as my example.

jspchief · 03-04-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian

There is merrit to what you are saying, but I think there is a fine line.

Those teams who have struggled for too many seasons and didn't get over the hump, I feel are hampered because they suck. Why?

When picking consistently in the top 5-10, teams end up with such high salaries at a few positions, that they don't have the funding to surround those highly paid players with quality talent. They have little depth and sub-par talent on the bottom half of their rosters.

I'll point to teams like the Bengals of the 1990s as my example.

No question. Sucking doesn't guarantee anything but an opportunity to draft high. You still have to get the pick right.

And in this day and age, have draft picks in the top 5 in multiple years will put so much strain on your salary cap it becomes a detriment. Bill Pollian has been talking about it a lot this year. My guess is rookie salary cap/slotting will be the next big issue that the NFL takes on. And if the NFLPA truly represents the players, they should be all for it.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 03-04-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian

There is merrit to what you are saying, but I think there is a fine line.

Those teams who have struggled for too many seasons and didn't get over the hump, I feel are hampered because they suck. Why?

When picking consistently in the top 5-10, teams end up with such high salaries at a few positions, that they don't have the funding to surround those highly paid players with quality talent. They have little depth and sub-par talent on the bottom half of their rosters.

I'll point to teams like the Bengals of the 1990s as my example.

Had the Bengals actually drafted worth a shit, it wouldn't have been as much of an issue.

Here's a list of R1 picks 1991-1999

Alfred Williams
David Klingler
John Copeland
Dan Wilkinson
KiJana Carter
Willie Anderson
Reinard Wilson
Takeo Spikes
Akili Smith

UGLY

Out of 82 picks over those 9 years, the only other players of note that they picked in later rounds were:

Kelly Gregg, R6, 1999
Corey Dillon, R2, 1997
Kimo von Oelhoffen, R6, 1994
Carl Pickens, R2, 1992

jspchief · 03-04-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Had the Bengals actually drafted worth a shit, it wouldn't have been as much of an issue.

Here's a list of R1 picks 1991-1999

Alfred Williams
David Klingler
John Copeland
Dan Wilkinson
KiJana Carter
Willie Anderson
Reinard Wilson
Takeo Spikes
Akili Smith

Exactly.

Now look at St Louis' 1st round in the same span. It's no mystery how one team put together a winner.

Chiefnj2 · 03-04-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspchief

IMO, Herm has been very solid in his drafting so far. 2006 has the potential to be an excellent draft.

As for the FA signings, I don't know how much he's hampered by spending limits, but the overall strategy in who's being targeted has been disappointing.

It's going to hinge on his 2nd and 3rd rounders. His drafts are better than Vermeils, but that doesn't mean they are good.

ChiefsCountry · 03-04-2008, 10:51 AM

The key to rebuilding is if you suck for a year or two, you need to hit with your first round pick.

03-04-2008, 10:01 AM
jspchief BAMF Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Your Face Casino cash: $9998710	To Win, You Have to.... Lose? It seems like there's a bit of a trend in the last decade's list of Super Bowl Champions... Stinking it up for a season or two to get some of the key players on your championship team. 10 years ago, organizations like the Ravens and Rams built championship teams by sucking for multiple years... 3+ years worth of top ten picks has it's advantages. The Colts did it by being the flatout worst in the league (Manning), but also added Freeney with a less than mediocre 6-10 record. The Giants got their Manning the same way. The Steelers had a fall from grace to land Roethlisberger. Even the mighty Patriots dropped a 5-11 turd that netted them Seymour and Matt Light. The Tampa Bay Bucs are the only team in recent history to hoist the Lombardi Trophy without really hitting a homerun with an early draft position. Of course another common denominator has been how these teams drafted outside of round 1, and how they drafted outside of the top 15. You don't see them trading away first round picks or trading down to get Siaviis. Many of them have a steady string of very good 2nd round picks. And Many of them also have found a little gold in sleepers (Tom Brady comes to mind). They don't strikeout in round 1, and they get occasional clutch hits in later rounds. So where the hell am I going with all of this? It feels like the Chiefs have been treading water for the last decade. But have they really? Have they been on the decline the last few years, or are they actually righting the ship? Since the great draft depression that ended in Ryan Sims, the Chiefs have actually been pretty impressive in round 1. They have landed undeniable NFL starters in LJ and DJ, a promising DE in Hali, and a WR that looks like he could be something Chiefs fans haven't seen in red since the invention of the wheel. The only flop being Siavii. They've also landed some pretty impressive sleepers in the last few years with Allen and Page. Improvement from Pollard, and a showing by Tyler, McBride or both, and suddenly our drafts are starting to look downright respectable. And now we come into 2008 staring down the barrel of the draft that might just be the catalyst for sunshine beyond the looming clouds. The number 5 overall pick needs to be a homerun. He needs to be a guy that becomes synonymous with Chiefs success. But beyond that the 2nd round pick, which comes on the edge of round 1, needs to become a starter caliber player in short order. There's little question this franchise is in a rebuilding mode. But I think the mistake fans are making is in thinking the rebuilding has just begun, when in reality it may have started 5 years ago. This is the year where we can add the keystone. In an off-season full of the same tired teeth-gnashing about the GM, coaches, and talent, I'm seeing a glass that's half full with a pitcher poised to pour. Let's hope we don't spill this April.
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03-04-2008, 10:03 AM	#2
OnTheWarpath15 MVP Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $4931115	Rep. But you have to post again to get it, apparently.
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03-04-2008, 10:04 AM	#3
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03-04-2008, 10:05 AM	#4
RealSNR Special Teams ACE!!! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Where the hell is SNR Casino cash: $2390208	I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Go and get your "hopeful" ideas out of here. This is the offseason, we're all about serious business.
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03-04-2008, 10:09 AM	#6
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $7883688	Herm is going to live and die with the draft just like Vermeil did. Herm is also going to need to start hitting on some of his veteran acquisitions. Edwards, Reed, Law, Nap, Turley and Terry have hurt. __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
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03-04-2008, 10:14 AM	#8
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03-04-2008, 10:28 AM	#10
Iowanian Supporter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Utopia Casino cash: $4788454	There is merrit to what you are saying, but I think there is a fine line. Those teams who have struggled for too many seasons and didn't get over the hump, I feel are hampered because they suck. Why? When picking consistently in the top 5-10, teams end up with such high salaries at a few positions, that they don't have the funding to surround those highly paid players with quality talent. They have little depth and sub-par talent on the bottom half of their rosters. I'll point to teams like the Bengals of the 1990s as my example.
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03-04-2008, 10:51 AM	#15
ChiefsCountry The Insider Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Lake of the Ozarks Casino cash: $2348752	The key to rebuilding is if you suck for a year or two, you need to hit with your first round pick.
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