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Old 03-22-2010, 08:51 PM  
ILChief ILChief is offline
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The whole "America hates this bill" thing being good for the GOP

While most polls, show 55-60% disapprove of the HC bill, I haven't seen one that tells WHY people disapprove. I'd say a fair amount (not most but a substantial number) of those that disapprove do so because they prefer a true single payer type system. Now if the GOP thinks those people are gonna vote for them they're out of their minds.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:33 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by orange View Post
*ahem* see post #15.
He's only listening to Rush and watching Fox News. He has no idea whats happening outside of his cocoon.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by billay View Post
The fact is you'll be required to report if you pay for heath insurance on your taxes.
No you dont, if you dont mind paying an extra $695 or +1%.

This is basically an income tax increase on everyone, combined with a way to get out of the tax increase.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:36 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
He's only listening to Rush and watching Fox News. He has no idea whats happening outside of his cocoon.
BTW Fox News just quoted the part in the new legislation that states a person can't go to jail by not buying health insurance, or, interestingly enough, the IRS can't put a lien on their property for the same reason.

But after reading your post I'm not sure I can believe the Fox report or not.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
Yeah, it's almost like

It's completely state owned

Rates weren't escalating at astronomical prices (making ours the highest in the world for 39th ranked care


billay, here's a little tip for you:

1) When insurances companies are privately owned and totally unregulated, they, like any corporation will be about one thing: creating as much profit as possible for their stockholders.

Well, how does one do that? Paring the rolls helps, not covering conditions helps, and jacking up rates helps. Furthermore, passing the buck to the government for the undesirables who then get charged out the ass by hospitals.

No one is claiming that rates are going to go back to 1984 prices. The point is to reduce the rate of change.

Well, explain this to me:

1) If it covers more people
2) If it cuts the budget
3) If it prevents people from being tossed on their ass when they get sick


Why is this the epitome of all that is evil?

You need to get over the thought that there is perfect legislation. It doesn't exist in a democracy (or a Republic). One of the reasons why Plato mentioned democracies are inherently inefficient in the Republic is precisely due to this. Concessions will be made. Flaws will be apparent. But if one applies the hedonistic calculus of Jeremy Benthem (basically greatest good for the greatest number) and it turns out that it has helped more people than it has harmed, then it's beneficial legislation.

I hate to break this to you, but "Government" doesn't equal "Corporation". Government's aren't bound by maximizing profits, and they don't work in the sociopathic way that corporations do. Even if this operates at a loss (comparitively it won't, it saves money), even then it could still be beneficial.

We don't live in an asocial world. This "gotta get mine" mentality is cutting off your nose to spite your face. You are presented the illusion of the possibility of getting yours, all the while those who really have a chance to get it benefit from your vote and your support.
Show me a peice of legislation the last 20 years that hasn't favored corporations. With all the lobbyist and money going around in DC they have to listen to what the corporations say. Why do you think Dennis Kuchnich called this a bailout for the insurance industry then voted for it? My guess is he likes his job and had he voted aginst he wouldn't make it past his primary.
Howcome stocks have gone up for the insurance and medicine industry everytime there was news that a bill was closer to passing?

There may never be a perfect bill but theres certainly ones much better than this. Again the best bill is the one that creates the most competition. If companies have to compete for consumers they'll be less inclined to **** them over.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:39 PM   #35
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BRC, for some one who didn't want the bill passed, you sure are bending yourself into a pretzel to kiss the feet of Obama.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:41 PM   #36
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Also Hamas we've seen incremental involvement from the government in the health care industry for years they've helped drive up the price of insurance. A few months ago I gave an example of how lasik eyesurgery has very little government involvement and there hasn't been a huge increase in price. It's because those doctors are allowed to compete for business with not interference.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:44 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
2) If it cuts the budget
So if it doesn't, and it won't, the statement 'Obama lied us into Health Care reform' is a fair one, right?
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:45 PM   #38
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Obama already lied he said he wasn't going to raised taxes on the middle class.
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Old 03-23-2010, 04:45 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
1) If it covers more people
2) If it cuts the budget
3) If it prevents people from being tossed on their ass when they get sick
To be fair, #2 is highly suspect. There's a reason why they only asked the CBO to look at ten years. (to satisfy the senate reconciliation rule). There's a reason why the new taxes hit long before the new coverage, just so they could squeek right under being a net loss by 2020.

It might be neutral over the next 10 years. After those ten years are up, the dems are theoretically hoping it stays neutral through the magic of unicorns and wishful thinking. (we'll find enough waste and fraud to somehow cut medical care costs without more legislation.)

To the left, if this thing is bleeding red ink after 10 years, we'll worry about that when it happens. UHC is a moral imperitive, and if we have to raise taxes, borrow, or reduce coverage, then so be it.

To the right, they are basically obsessed over the budget to the exclusion of all else, because their voters typically have little to no insurance problems, so they politically dont have to care about the uninsured.
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:11 PM   #40
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I don't disagree with this at all. I think the right is blowing this whole thing waaaay out of proportion. People knew this was the platform, they're just pissed that it was half assed.

This place will implode if the Republicans don't take the majority back.
Yes, of course. I am being just too full of myself, if I think that Scott Brown was elected to Ted Kennedy's seat, because there were enough dimwitted dumbasses like meme living there, that thought that Obama was Bush "lite".

I had better humble myself right now.
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:12 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
He's only listening to Rush and watching Fox News. He has no idea whats happening outside of his cocoon.
Meanwhile you libs think that the money fairy comes at night and funds our govt then we make great decisions like passing large costly legislation that will drown this country forever in debt. Of course libs will just turn their heads away from the actual numbers (which is what exactly Obama did at the HC summit, called them "talking points" like they didn't matter) Which in fact it DOES matter and libs just don't care, they just want to turn around and point fingers at GWB and the Iraq war. That's really their ONLY defense, a weak one, since Obama's already outspent GWB in just one yr being POTUS.
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:14 PM   #42
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A. Congress will not cut Medicare by $500 Billion (no way, no how - they never have cut it)

B. Congress (in the future) will never allow the Cadillac tax to be enacted (union support will preclude)

C. Congress will never NOT perform the doctor fix

There is no way on earth that this expansion will ever be paid for. It will massively add to the debt
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:28 PM   #43
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A. Congress will not cut Medicare by $500 Billion (no way, no how - they never have cut it)

B. Congress (in the future) will never allow the Cadillac tax to be enacted (union support will preclude)

C. Congress will never NOT perform the doctor fix

There is no way on earth that this expansion will ever be paid for. It will massively add to the debt


Look out dude, some on here will soon tell you the sky is falling and some will go as far and call you retarded. You and I both know you are right.
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:31 PM   #44
KC Dan KC Dan is offline
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Look out dude, some on here will soon tell you the sky is falling and some will go as far and call you retarded. You and I both know you are right.
They can call me that if they wish, but they have no proof that any of that will come to pass and I have years of proof that they will not do what they say. The Congress never has and they are liars. Game over...
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:34 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billay View Post
Show me a peice of legislation the last 20 years that hasn't favored corporations. With all the lobbyist and money going around in DC they have to listen to what the corporations say. Why do you think Dennis Kuchnich called this a bailout for the insurance industry then voted for it? My guess is he likes his job and had he voted aginst he wouldn't make it past his primary.
Howcome stocks have gone up for the insurance and medicine industry everytime there was news that a bill was closer to passing?

There may never be a perfect bill but theres certainly ones much better than this. Again the best bill is the one that creates the most competition. If companies have to compete for consumers they'll be less inclined to **** them over.
The 1870s, 1890s, 1920s, 1980s, and 2000s, eras of the highest amounts of deregulation (and thus, competition) post Civil War, disagree with you.

Furthermore, Kucinich wants a single payer system. I happen to agree with him. However, when faced between voting against this legislation (and it failing) and keeping the status quo, or introducing something that both extends coverage and cuts the deficit, he made a pragmatic decision.

If you don't believe me, then ask the man himself. He said the same thing on "Real Time" on Friday.
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