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Old 09-20-2012, 12:11 PM  
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
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The REAL Story of the 47% "Moochers"


If Americans are paying attention, and grasp the reality and not the demagoguery of what Romney said, it could be the final nail in his coffin....

Americans are not moochers

CNN.com
By Teresa Ghilarducci and Rick McGahey
updated 12:54 PM EDT, Thu September 20, 2012

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/20/opinio...rticle_sidebar
CNN.com







Editor's note: Teresa Ghilarducci and Rick McGahey are professors of economics at the Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis and The New School in New York City.

(CNN) -- Americans are not a nation of moochers and helpless dependents. Those who are not paying federal income tax would gladly do so, because it would mean they have a decent-paying job.

GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney is right that 47% of Americans don't pay federal income tax. But he is wrong to suggest almost half of Americans pay no tax at all and feel entitled to live off government handouts.

Romney said: "There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. But that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. ... These are people who pay no income tax."

It's true that some Americans don't pay federal income tax. But virtually all Americans pay some form of tax, whether it's sales, payroll, state income, or property tax.

Over 60% of those who don't pay income tax are working; they pay payroll tax, which goes to support Social Security and Medicare. Another 22% of those who don't pay income tax are the elderly; most of them don't work.

In fact, only about 8% of Americans pay neither federal income tax nor payroll tax, because they are unemployed, are students, or are disabled. What is missing from all this talk about tax is the fact that although the rich pay higher taxes than the poor, middle-class people actually pay a higher percentage of their income in total taxes. True, federal income tax rates are progressive, with rates going to 35% for the top earners. But deductions and special treatment of capital gains reduce actual tax rates for the top earners. So what we end up with is upper-middle-class taxpayers paying the highest actual percentage of their income, over 31%, according to a 2010 study by the group Citizens for Tax Justice.

The payroll tax for Social Security is 12.4% (split between employer and employee). It's highly regressive, because only the first $110,100 of income is taxed. CEOs earning over $35 million per year have paid their entire annual Social Security tax bill before the end of their workday on January 2, while regular workers see this tax deducted from every check throughout the year.

Billionaire Warren Buffett points out that he pays a tax rate of only 17.8%, compared with his secretary's rate of 35.8%. Why? Because payroll taxes are capped and he gets a lower rate on his capital gains.

President Obama pushed to pass the "Buffett Rule" to help reduce this disparity, but Romney's vice-presidential running mate, Rep. Paul Ryan, opposed the rule, calling support for it "class warfare." As the Republicans use the term "class warfare," they also bring forth, pointedly, details on the wide gap in income and wealth distribution in our country.

Digging deeper into why 47% don't pay federal income tax, what we find are many former taxpayers: Twenty-two percent are the elderly, living mostly on Social Security, a benefit they got by working and paying payroll taxes. Others are unemployed or are paid close to the minimum wage, so they don't have enough income to file any taxes.

What about Romney's claim that these people believe they have a right to government assistance? Our research shows that over 50% of older people looking for work (but who are too young to collect Social Security) do not receive unemployment insurance or any other government assistance. They are living close to the poverty line with no help other than family.

Far fewer poor Americans get government assistance for low incomes. For the last 30 years, less than 4% of the U.S. population has received a full year's worth of payments, like food stamps, which are based on level of income.

Romney can choose whom he cares about, but he can't be allowed to choose his own facts and distort reality in service of divisive politics. Focusing exclusively on federal income taxes hides the fact that most Americans pay plenty of other taxes.

Finally, Romney says that the 47% can't be convinced to take "personal responsibility." Tell that to the single mother working the night shift to put her kids through school, or the 78-year-old widow living on Social Security, or the handicapped Iraqi war veteran who relies on government health care for his service to his country. Along with millions of working Americans, they are paragons of personal responsibility, not Romney's caricature of self-pitying victims seeking to live off government benefits.

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Old 09-21-2012, 10:02 AM   #46
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Regardless of all the poitical BS there still are a huge % of people not paying income tax. I find it absurd to think that we balance that out by raising taxes on 1% of the poeple when that 1% is already paying something like 37% of the burden.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by philfree View Post
Regardless of all the poitical BS there still are a huge % of people not paying income tax. I find it absurd to think that we balance that out by raising taxes on 1% of the poeple when that 1% is already paying something like 37% of the burden.
Link? Seriously....

If your point is...the top 3-5% pay a much larger share of taxes paid, no one should disagree; what you and others ignore is....their "share" of taxes paid, is still less than their "share" of national income and assets.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:10 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Link? Seriously....

If your point is...the top 3-5% pay a much larger share of taxes paid, no one should disagree; what you and others ignore is....their "share" of taxes paid, is still less than their "share" of national income and assets.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxto...households.cfm

http://www.heritage.org/federalbudge...income-earners
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:11 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
"There you go again" ....confusing and conflating federal income taxes, with total tax burden.

And the link you added/edited (conservative think tank, lacky) cites 10% pay 71% of taxes, but doesn't reveal their share of total income and assets....I wonder why? Hmmmm......
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:14 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Link? Seriously....

If your point is...the top 3-5% pay a much larger share of taxes paid, no one should disagree; what you and others ignore is....their "share" of taxes paid, is still less than their "share" of national income and assets.
I don't have a link and I'm not good at this stuff but I'm trying to learn all I can about it at this point by absorbing everything I can. So in that vein explain what you mean by
Quote:
their "share" of national income and assets
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:14 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
"There you go again" ....confusing and conflating federal income taxes, with total tax burden.
I'm not confused, you are. You asked for a link in response to a post about income tax not about all federal taxes.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:15 AM   #52
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This whole thread is a prime example of how sheeple will believe anything the media says just as long as it supports their mentality. I think all of us know a lot of moochers but apparently they don't exist because CNN says so and it serves Kotter's purpose. To go down this road you have to be both stubborn and stupid.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:21 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY View Post
This whole thread is a prime example of how sheeple will believe anything the media says just as long as it supports their mentality. I think all of us know a lot of moochers but apparently they don't exist because CNN says so and it serves Kotter's purpose. To go down this road you have to be both stubborn and stupid.
Look, BD...I know have your mind made up, but look at the facts. The bottom-line is that 47% don't pay taxes....is complete hogwash, and it's being used to demagogue conservative sheeple on the issue.

If you want to severely cut entitlements and reduce incentives and tax breaks that affect chunks of that 47%, fine; I'm open to that discussion. But let's be honest about the real numbers, and we should also talk about the cuts to incentives and programs and tax shelters and cuts that benefit the top enders too.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:31 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Look, BD...I know have your mind made up, but look at the facts. The bottom-line is that 47% don't pay taxes....is complete hogwash, and it's being used to demagogue conservative sheeple on the issue.

If you want to severely cut entitlements and reduce incentives and tax breaks that affect chunks of that 47%, fine; I'm open to that discussion. But let's be honest about the real numbers, and we should also talk about the cuts to incentives and programs and tax shelters and cuts that benefit the top enders too.
Ask any business owner about the game, you know the one. Work until you qualify for unemployment and then live on that as long as you can and then do it again. It's a huge problem. We are a country filled with lazy ass moochers. That was my point. It's not about whether someone paid income tax and who cares what the exact percentage is? It's really high and yes they all will be voting for Obama for obvious reasons.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:35 AM   #55
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A gigantic chunk that $16T in debt is due to defense, SS and medicare. The stuff you are talking about like food stamps and welfare is a rounding error on top of the budgets for those thing.

I realize this doesn't matter to you because this is more of an emotional issue than a logical issue for you - and you will just ascribe whatever number you feel to the moocher class debt.
bullshit.

SS was supposed to be funded on it's own, not touched by the government, and we pay into it separately.

The fact that LBJ saw fit to start raiding it, and it has been going on since then, does not make it part of the ****ing debt. In fact, it has been used for funding non SS programs, or the debt would be higher.

My SS account (mine and employer contributions) has funded over $350k to the Government and I will not live long enough to see half of that principal, let alone the interest it should have drawn. Now the ****ing socialist liberals are going to figure out how to take that away.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:36 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Look, BD...I know have your mind made up, but look at the facts. The bottom-line is that 47% don't pay taxes....is complete hogwash, and it's being used to demagogue conservative sheeple on the issue.

If you want to severely cut entitlements and reduce incentives and tax breaks that affect chunks of that 47%, fine; I'm open to that discussion. But let's be honest about the real numbers, and we should also talk about the cuts to incentives and programs and tax shelters and cuts that benefit the top enders too.
The 47% figure is a true figure. 47% (give or take a percent) do not end up paying any federal income taxes. However, there are many reasons why that happens (retirees on SS, active duty soldiers, full time students, working poor). The true "moochers" are not that 47%, I would estimate far, far less than 47%. Maybe in my personal experience I deal with more decent people than other, but the people I know that received federal/state aid at some point were working their asses off to get off it.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:55 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
"There you go again" ....confusing and conflating federal income taxes, with total tax burden.

And the link you added/edited (conservative think tank, lacky) cites 10% pay 71% of taxes, but doesn't reveal their share of total income and assets....I wonder why? Hmmmm......
If they make 71% of the income would you feel that is fair?
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Old 09-21-2012, 01:16 PM   #58
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And here is the HUGE disconnect that I get from Republicans. Welfare/Food stamps are a drop in the ****ing bucket of our National Debt compared to the fallout of corporate banker greed that occurred in 2008. QE, stimulus, and bailouts are how we've achieved this debt. And that was ALL due to the deregulation and subsequent greed that ensued in the middle of the last decade.

But by all means, keep banging the drum against the poorest of our society. I know it sucks that you have to go to work every day and they can't/won't. Hope it makes you feel better when inflation drives eggs up to $8 a dozen. It's all their fault.
You think I'm attacking the poor? You apparently missed my next response too. So many in this country are so misinformed because you think it's good to look to your wants and needs or the wants and needs of others by government means. Of course government controls the education in this country so it's going to lean for its students to look to government for their answers. We have a whole culture brought up this way and it's slowly destroying our country because in reality government can't be the end all for everything like so many hold dear in this country. We have to have some semblance of personal responsibility. I'm not the biggest Romney fan but he stated this and it gets attacked furiously by the left because it's true. We can't go on with the wreckless government we have just to make liberals feel better about themselves, it's fiscal insanity. FWIW, the government's war on poverty was supposed to wipe out poverty and now look at the FUBAR mess we are now in.

I had to shake my head when you claimed I am attacking the poor. I'm one of those minorities that came from humble beginnings. I never took any government handouts and worked my ass off to build a successful business for almost 2 decades. I started with nothing but by the grace of God was able to achieve. The big bloated out-of-control governments has nearly destroyed my industry so I am struggling mightily right now. I AM living through the unintended consequences of what liberals/progressives believe. I look around at all the business closings or strugglings and I understand the damage they have done by looking for government to be their end all. All the burdens they have put on Americans over the decades just so they can feel better about themselves. It's really ****ed up reasoning and needs to be called out before they do any more damage to this country. This country is in some serious need for austerity because it can't go on with the wreckless government like it has.

Reagan warned us that government wasn't the answer to our problems, it often is the problem but we have a government controlled education culture that has done its damage. Just look at the OP, the way he attacks the tea party. The tea party only seeks government fiscal sanity but he sees it a threat to his own self-preservation. No one will blame him for that but he needs to be intellectually honest about that, same with anyone involved with government in some manner on why they hate conservatives.

FWIW, I'm not against helping the poor or even having a safety net for the poor but it has to be temporary. Americans need to open their eyes that what we've been doing has failed and is not working. What underlying evil the libs/progressives have brought is they are helping to destroy human dignity in this country. The human dignity for people to yearn to better themselves is dying because so many people look to government to be their end all. It's been frightening fanatical on this board at times too. Sociaiism, communism, or any other big out-of-control statist governments have always failed because for one, they destroy human dignity. Open your eyes, that's what is happening here too.

TGI
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:11 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The_Grand_Illusion View Post
You think I'm attacking the poor? You apparently missed my next response too. So many in this country are so misinformed because you think it's good to look to your wants and needs or the wants and needs of others by government means. Of course government controls the education in this country so it's going to lean for its students to look to government for their answers. We have a whole culture brought up this way and it's slowly destroying our country because in reality government can't be the end all for everything like so many hold dear in this country. We have to have some semblance of personal responsibility. I'm not the biggest Romney fan but he stated this and it gets attacked furiously by the left because it's true. We can't go on with the wreckless government we have just to make liberals feel better about themselves, it's fiscal insanity. FWIW, the government's war on poverty was supposed to wipe out poverty and now look at the FUBAR mess we are now in.

I had to shake my head when you claimed I am attacking the poor. I'm one of those minorities that came from humble beginnings. I never took any government handouts and worked my ass off to build a successful business for almost 2 decades. I started with nothing but by the grace of God was able to achieve. The big bloated out-of-control governments has nearly destroyed my industry so I am struggling mightily right now. I AM living through the unintended consequences of what liberals/progressives believe. I look around at all the business closings or strugglings and I understand the damage they have done by looking for government to be their end all. All the burdens they have put on Americans over the decades just so they can feel better about themselves. It's really ****ed up reasoning and needs to be called out before they do any more damage to this country. This country is in some serious need for austerity because it can't go on with the wreckless government like it has.

Reagan warned us that government wasn't the answer to our problems, it often is the problem but we have a government controlled education culture that has done its damage. Just look at the OP, the way he attacks the tea party. The tea party only seeks government fiscal sanity but he sees it a threat to his own self-preservation. No one will blame him for that but he needs to be intellectually honest about that, same with anyone involved with government in some manner on why they hate conservatives.

FWIW, I'm not against helping the poor or even having a safety net for the poor but it has to be temporary. Americans need to open their eyes that what we've been doing has failed and is not working. What underlying evil the libs/progressives have brought is they are helping to destroy human dignity in this country. The human dignity for people to yearn to better themselves is dying because so many people look to government to be their end all. It's been frightening fanatical on this board at times too. Sociaiism, communism, or any other big out-of-control statist governments have always failed because for one, they destroy human dignity. Open your eyes, that's what is happening here too.

TGI
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:31 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Is there any chance you are willing to elaborate, or you just want to forget it?
oh, so the shill who has made of career out of touting BS catchphrases, now wants to pretend to be coy and needs someone to explain it to him?

WTF did you not understand??
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Tarrant County, Texas and Johnson County, Texas.
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