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Old 06-27-2013, 09:17 AM  
gblowfish gblowfish is offline
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Uncle Lamar Wants to Abolish the Minimum Wage

Because those Wal Mart workers are overpaid, damn it! This guy is the ranking GOP member of the Senate Labor Committee. Wow....

http://tinyurl.com/omaxldm

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), the ranking Republican on the Senate's labor committee, said in a hearing Tuesday that he would prefer to see the minimum wage abolished.

Alexander's declaration came amid a back-and-forth between a witness from the conservative Heritage Foundation and Sens. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.). The trio had been debating what kind of impact a higher minimum wage would have on a theoretical worker, and it seemed Sanders wanted to know whether the witness opposed raising the minimum wage or having a minimum wage at all.

"There are some conservatives who do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage," Sanders said to the witness, James Sherk, a labor policy analyst at the think tank.

"Let me jump in," Alexander then said. "I do not believe in it."

The policy debate had been lively, with interruptions all around, and Sanders grew excited at Alexander's interjection.

"So we have a ranking member," Sanders responded. "Alright! There we go!"
Sanders turned to Alexander.

"So you do not believe in the concept of the minimum wage?"

"That's correct," Alexander responded.

"You would abolish the minimum wage?"

"Correct."

"And if someone had to work for two bucks an hour," Sanders continued, "they would work for two bucks an hour?"

Alexander went on to compare a higher minimum wage to a form of welfare. Instead of boosting it, as Congress is now considering, he suggested a common conservative alternative to a federal wage floor -- a higher earned-income tax credit.

"No, I would go for a much more targeted approach," Alexander said. "The question I want to ask, if we are interested in social justice, and we want to honor work instead of getting a welfare check, then wouldn't a more efficient way to help people in poverty be to increase the earned-income tax credit rather than do what we always do here, which is come up with a big idea and send the bill to somebody else? What we're doing is coming up with the big idea and sending the bill to the employer.

"Why don't we just pay for the big ideas we come up with," he continued. "And if we want to create a standard of living for people that's much higher than what they have today, then let's attach the dollars to the job and everybody pay for it. I don't want to do that. But if we were going to do it, then I think that's the way we should do it."

"That's a very interesting discussion for another time," Sanders said with a slight laugh.

Sanders then turned back to Sherk and asked him if he'd support a bill sponsored by Alexander abolishing the minimum wage.

"I believe the minimum wage hurts its intended beneficiaries," Sherk responded. "I do not support the concept of the minimum wage."

"I appreciate your honesty," Sanders replied.
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:39 AM   #166
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
If you want to show a cause and effect from something that worked before past that's different. Like the 1920 Depression that corrected on its own in a year without massive govt intervention. That's a specific type of thing the Austrians would use because it worked better without making things worse. ( Similar to how FDR made the economy worse and now Obama.)
I will post this in every thread where you continue to lie about this kinda of thing.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-chichile.htm

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Many people have often wondered what it would be like to create a nation based solely on their political and economic beliefs. Imagine: no opposition, no political rivals, no compromise of morals. Only a "benevolent dictator," if you will, setting up society according to your ideals.

The Chicago School of Economics got that chance for 16 years in Chile, under near-laboratory conditions. Between 1973 and 1989, a government team of economists trained at the University of Chicago dismantled or decentralized the Chilean state as far as was humanly possible. Their program included privatizing welfare and social programs, deregulating the market, liberalizing trade, rolling back trade unions, and rewriting its constitution and laws. And they did all this in the absence of the far-right's most hated institution: democracy.

The results were exactly what liberals predicted. Chile's economy became more unstable than any other in Latin America, alternately experiencing deep plunges and soaring growth. Once all this erratic behavior was averaged out, however, Chile's growth during this 16-year period was one of the slowest of any Latin American country. Worse, income inequality grew severe. The majority of workers actually earned less in 1989 than in 1973 (after adjusting for inflation), while the incomes of the rich skyrocketed. In the absence of market regulations, Chile also became one of the most polluted countries in Latin America. And Chile's lack of democracy was only possible by suppressing political opposition and labor unions under a reign of terror and widespread human rights abuses.

Conservatives have developed an apologist literature defending Chile as a huge success story. In 1982, Milton Friedman enthusiastically praised General Pinochet (the Chilean dictator) because he "has supported a fully free-market economy as a matter of principle. Chile is an economic miracle." (1) However, the statistics below show this to be untrue. Chile is a tragic failure of right-wing economics, and its people are still paying the price for it today.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:12 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
/Gay marriage as a political issue invented and exploited by the Right to bring the religious nuts out to vote because "I got mine, f you" as an economic policy doesn't sell.

It worked great in 2012 since income inequality is up sharply under Obama yet he got re-elected. So you can't say it doesn't work.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:38 PM   #168
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Nothing, it isn't a Libertarian paradise. In fact, like Chile, you can point to Iceland as a failed Libertarian experiment.



http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...?currentPage=4

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iris-l..._b_172961.html


More evidence that BEP's Theories only exist in the theoretical world.
Yeah, you got the wrong period in Iceland's history. You are looking at the Republic of Iceland.The Commonwealth was much earlier.

Even in that period you are looking at, Iceland did the free market thing and did not bail out the banks. They let failed businesses fail. Since then their economy has stabilized and began to recover and its a real recovery instead of Bernake's jobless bubble inflating mess that is happening in the states.
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Old 07-04-2013, 05:49 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
It worked great in 2012 since income inequality is up sharply under Obama yet he got re-elected. So you can't say it doesn't work.
Income inequality is up over the last thirty years. Any increase under Obama has just continued the trends already present.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:45 AM   #170
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As for your article on Chile. I will let Chile's former finance minister to educate you.

How Chile Successfully Transformed Its Economy.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:48 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I will post this in every thread where you continue to lie about this kinda of thing.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-chichile.htm
You don't handle lies with lies.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:49 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Income inequality is up over the last thirty years. Any increase under Obama has just continued the trends already present.
So.

What does this have to do with govt, except for the Crony Capitalis aka Corporatist aka Fascist and Socialist aspects? Nothing really.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:49 AM   #173
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Yeah, you got the wrong period in Iceland's history. You are looking at the Republic of Iceland.The Commonwealth was much earlier.

Even in that period you are looking at, Iceland did the free market thing and did not bail out the banks. They let failed businesses fail. Since then their economy has stabilized and began to recover and its a real recovery instead of Bernake's jobless bubble inflating mess that is happening in the states.
Exactly.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:41 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Again, see the Salon article for why Hong Kong isn't what you think it is.
Why are you appealing to authority—without question, now? Salon doesn't understand free-market economics to even be able to analyze it. They will look at it from a left-wing pov. I said it was the closest to the Austrian free-market model—not an the exact thing. Further, Heritage is NeoConservative. So some of those countries have tax systems that make people serfs still. But it's better than nothing.

Salon is wrong. It's just their viewpoint.

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Which, if you want to claim this, requires actually evidence. Where is the evidence that your Theories better a greater number of people? Which country has proven this?
The evidence is based on observation during periods when things were freer or in specific markets that aren't under heavy control or episodes in history with such characteristics. Then applying that on a greater scale. I already told you this. That's enough. There was even a period during the Medieval era, where there was a bustling market of free international trade. Then we had the rise of nation states and mercantilism came with it.

Austrian economics is based on what actually happens—not math. Mainstream economics is math based but economics is really about human action which can be observed by watching markets. This is true even to some degree in markets under control ideologies, such as your own. For instance the more govt control, the more a black market develops and grows. Those black markets show the market has the last say. It ALWAYS does. Even when govt intervenes. This is the bust phase. Even in a super socialism, the market will have the last say—they are waiting lines. ( and black markets deal with them )

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They are? And this isn't like evolution. Stop making stupid comparisons.
I beg to differ or you just can't connect the dots well enugh. Evolution is a THEORY and that theory has been applied to form certain conclusions, despite it having gaps. What's inconsistent, is that your side uses this theory to insist on the correctness of that conclusion. Meanwhile, you're all for the survival of the fittest for man's development but not when it comes to markets. Then it's "Darwinian" oh noes!


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You brought it up not me, dumbass. I didn't bring Gay marriage into this debate. But, I understand, you are just angry because I provided actual historical evidence which you claimed didn't exist.
Whoosh! The point is still over your head. I didn't bring Gay marriage, itself, into the debate, you did that. I brought your manner of debunking something using a fallacy of it never happened before. I included the argument of the "aristocratic society" as a similar example, 'er misapplication, of logic.

Quote:
It wasn't a similar example. It was a stupid attempt by you to distract from the fact you have nothing but theories.
Pot calling kettle black. That's what you did when you distracted with a logical fallacy so it looks like you were actually refuting something, when you really weren't. You're the one who made the claim that if something had never been done before on a broad scale, or even purely, that it was not valid.

You used a few exceptions on gay marriage, that prove something that happened broadly in history, or even in certain societies to apply that as a general statement. And they weren't really clear proof.


Quote:
This isn't true either. The colonies were perfect experiments to try representative government. Virginia 1619. Besides the fact that you can look at Rome and Greece and take ideas for what works and what doesn't. Say for example, the early Roman practice of the Senate (representative) electing two Consuls to rule for a Single year. Turned out a single year is a bad idea. There are numerous examples of trail and error.
Seriously, colonial America was essentially an English colony with English politico/economy and structure which was aristocratic, class based and a monarchy. They lived under British mercantilism and tried to overthrow it. In order to to shrug off the British class system and monarchy it took the American War for Independence to develop a federal system of government and a classless system. Then it took a Constitution to get rid of any titles of nobility.

Furthermore, the wealthy landowners were the de facto aristocracy. In Europe only the aristocracy was allowed to own land, amass wealth and vote. All you can claim about the colonies is that it was less aristocratic. EPIC FAIL.

Further, it's during the period after the War of Independence, that is one of the freest and American changed from a backward wilderness to an economic juggernaut eventually passing Europe. That's even more evidence.

Then again, I was really referring to the time before America. Since it was here, where such notions began to be cast aside and applied.

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Where are your examples of trail and error (Chile) and what ways will the libertarian ideology be refined to combat the failings found?
See last part above.

I am NOT a libertarian. I have repeated that over and over,. It's YOUR failure to accept or acknowledge them and so throw it in as a falsehood. I am 90% supporter of Austrian economics, which is free-market. That's economics—not politics. That system is freer of politics. I support some taking the edges off, is all. Like the 40 hour work week. Furthermore, not all libertarians are Austrians either. Friedman was from the Monetarist economic school.

I already discussed Chile with you at length and it still didn't convince you. I also provided the depression of 1920 as another, where the govt did not intervene and the economy recovered in one year. You ignored that too. Instead you keep using the logical fallacy of argument by assertion.

You're not open to new information, just left-wing tripe stemming from the control ideologies. Those ideologies are rife with examples of failure and lower standards of living. That's all you need, to conclude that adding more of that will not improve economic conditions. That is, unless the outcome you desire, is that everyone is equal and the same which is seems you support. I don't support that.

It's very obvious, you are NOT even remotely familiar with the different economic schools and the models they support. Just one. Heck, you don't even have a rudimentary understanding of supply and demand witnessing your arguments in using govt mandates to force insurers and other businesses to provide specific coverage. All that does is push up the demand curve which leads to rising prices.

It is due to YOUR ideology, that the wealthy are getting wealthier and the middle-class is being destroyed, because govt intervention has continued and continued to grow. That's the greater trend. Socialism means equal poverty for all. You either support a fascist solution or an outright socialist solution with single-payer.

Just because the twentieth centurywe've had a mixed-economy more than a free-market one, does not mean you can not apply what happens in areas that are freer and abandon areas where there are mercantilist, fascist/corporatist, or socialist polices by learning from the freer areas.

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You said in History. Now you are moving the goalposts.
Whoosh! Over your head. It was your use of the fallacy that if something hadn't been done before it was invalid. It's not. It doesn't prove anything. Note: I expect you to keep ignoring this.

Quote:
Unless you consider less than 2,000 years ago antiquity, I provided an example from recent times in the Church.
That wasn't a fact. It was somebody's extrapolation and an opinion. If anything the image used in that article looked like Eastern rite.

Quote:
You also didn't read the link. Otherwise you would have seen their other examples. I provided you with the very first example it gave. Rome is not ancient nor is the Church:
I did look at it—quickly and could see things that were not proof but extrapolation and opinion. Funny how a lot of it looked copied from wikipedia which is rife with the same speculations. The Catholic Church denies this. It makes logical sense since they are commanded to be "fruitful and multipy" and that sex is only for procreation.

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Again, I found historical evidence of Homosexuals enjoying the same rights as heterosexual.
Nope. Didn't prove anything. Certainly not on a broad scale as a norm.

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Can you find historical evidence that your fantasy theories have worked in real life?
Again, I provided them and in other threads; again here as well. But you continually IGNORE them as if arguing from assertion is a valid argument. It's another logical fallacy. I even put a quote by Milton Friedman on the Gilded Age, an age where we began to surpass Europe.

Quote:
Gay marriage as a political issue invented and exploited by the Right to bring the religious nuts out to vote because "I got mine, f you" as an economic policy doesn't sell.
That's funny, why would the right do that when heterosexual marriage has been the status quo in this country and they want to maintain that? This is illogical. Nope, gay marriage is a political issue invented by the left, since they brought the whole idea to the fore in politics. After all, in the 80's gays wanted nothing to do with gay marriage or the govt involved in any part of their lifestyle. They wanted to be left alone. It was the left that exploited it, and mainly hetero's, using egalitarian principles instead of liberty issues and as such is really Cultural Marxism. Marx wanted to destroy traditional marriage, advocated "free love" and other cultural changes. This is why the left tries to indoctrinate kids in the schools including even teaching fisting techniques, instead of just getting the govt out of marriage altogether and leaving other people's children alone so they can be raised in the values of the parents. Again, CONTROL ideology.

I have advocated just getting govt our of marriage altogether because throughout history people just up and married. There were no licenses needed.
More often it was handled between families. There were even times if you were just caught kissing you were considered "married."
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Last edited by BucEyedPea; 07-04-2013 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:01 AM   #175
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Oh, and Hong Kong is still an example of a free-market economy....80th percentile. Some regulation, and theirs are simple and straight forward does not make it un-free.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:21 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
BEP wants to go back to this:

The Long Depression (1873-1878)

http://www.socialwelfarehistory.com/...ng-depression/
Nope. The period after the Civil War experience the convulsions that economies suffer after a war where Lincoln created greenbacks and inflated to pay for it. This created distortions in the markets initially which was due to govt—not the free market. Govts start wars and have to find a way to pay for them. This is usually done by printing money and inflating.

However, that period, overall, actually wasn't that bad, there was still more prosperity because the increase in money supply was not that rapid and so true economic growth was able outpace it. Furthermore, the schools of economic thought you rely on think prices falling is bad because they see it as a contraction. It's not. It's beneficial. It leads to a rising standard of living for the masses because wages are not the only factor.

LOL and look at what that site is a history of—"social welfare."

I don't know what this is to show, as there's nothing on the page I can see that is related to this discussion.

What your sources FAIL to address:

The Myth of the Long Depression
Some excerpts:

Quote:
The Crisis of 1873 closely resembled prior crises. Expansion was initiated in the United States due to the high costs involved in the Civil War.
So there was an artificial boom.

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The national banking system was ensconced after the Civil War.
If you believe this period was such a disaster, why aren't your criticizing this as a factor?
This is exactly what the Austrian school cites as a factor for artificial booms, which eventually become a bust.
Today it's the Federal Reserve.

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Northern Pacific had been the recipient of the biggest federal largesse to railroads during the 1860s: a land grant of no less than 47 million acres.
Mercantilism.

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However, this "depression" saw an extraordinarily large expansion of industry, of railroads, of physical output, of net national product, and real per capita income. As Friedman and Schwartz admit, the decade from 1869 to 1879 saw a 3-percent-per annum increase in money national product, an outstanding real national product growth of 6.8 percent per year in this period, and a phenomenal rise of 4.5 percent per year in real product per capita.
Quote:
Even the alleged "monetary contraction" never took place, the money supply increasing by 2.7 percent per year in this period. From 1873 through 1878, before another spurt of monetary expansion, the total supply of bank money rose from $1.964 billion to $2.221 billion—a rise of 13.1 percent or 2.6 percent per year. In short, a modest but definite rise, and scarcely a contraction.

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The MYTH was brought about by misinterpretation of the fact that prices in general fell sharply during the entire period. Indeed they fell from the end of the Civil War until 1879. Friedman and Schwartz estimated that prices in general fell from 1869 to 1879 by 3.8 percent per annum.

In the natural course of events, when government and the banking system do not increase the money supply very rapidly, free-market capitalism will result in an increase of production and economic growth so great as to swamp the increase of money supply. Prices will fall, and the consequences will be not depression or stagnation, but prosperity (since costs are falling, too) economic growth, and the spread of the increased living standard to all the consumers.

The analogous "great depression" in England in this period was also a myth for the same reasons.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:33 AM   #177
Prison Bitch Prison Bitch is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Income inequality is up over the last thirty years. Any increase under Obama has just continued the trends already present.
It didn't rise under W as I showed already. But no matter - you claim inequality is a political loser but Clinton and Obama won despite it. So your thesis is obv incorrect
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:01 AM   #178
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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From the link:http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/libe..._still_a_cult/


Quote:
But libertarians who want to prove that a country based on libertarian ideology can exist in the real world cannot point to the United States at any period in its history from the Founding to the present.
I knew there'd be something wrong with this opinion piece for advocating freer-markets—it's a complete STRAWMAN argument — loneiguana's most favored logical fallacy—as IF I made the claim, ev'r, for a libertarian country. Nope, never did and most libertarians know this is the case. I made a case for Austrian School free-markets which is an economic system and argument.

Then it uses this:

Quote:
...plutocrats like the Koch brothers and various self-interested corporations.
The Austrians are critical of the Koch brothers as neo-mercantilists, who also initiated a coup at the Cato Institute which was never fully libertarian anyway. "Self-interested corporations" can mean different things...and to the Austrians this means using govt to get their markets.





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"If you’re not careful newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed & loving the people who are doing the oppressing." ~ Malcolm X
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:06 AM   #179
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Nothing, it isn't a Libertarian paradise. In fact, like Chile, you can point to Iceland as a failed Libertarian experiment.
Chile was never libertarian. Once again, you confuse the Chicago School with libertarianism. It's monetarist school and it's still fairly statist. The real libertarians criticize Milton Friedman's claimed libertarianism.



Quote:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...?currentPage=4

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iris-l..._b_172961.html


More evidence that BEP's Theories only exist in the theoretical world.
O.M.G! More evidence of loneiguana's ignorance of libertarianism, Austrian economics, and monetarism. They all all identical things to him and he uses another STRAWMAN argument that misrepresents my position. This is a failure of logic and a use of more logical fallacies.
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"If you’re not careful newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed & loving the people who are doing the oppressing." ~ Malcolm X
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:11 AM   #180
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is online now
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
The Commonwealth of Iceland. Lasted longer then the United States has been around and was even more decentralized. So what do I win?
Yes, we should strive to be like a small, isolated village 1000 years ago.
And where are they now?
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