Post Pioli, are we looking at a full rebuild?

[qabbaan]

Let's be optimistic and imagine for a moment that the end of this season brings the axe, and Pioli, Crennel, Cassel, and most of the team's major problems are swept out as Clark Hunt proves he is not an absentee owner and does in fact care about winning.

Are we looking at a near total rebuild, at this point?

This would be a team with no GM, no coaching staff worth retaining, and no quarterback. Most of Pioli's draft choices have melted away like cotton candy. If we had a window when we snuck into that Wild Card game, it seems to have closed. But the Chiefs are the 8th youngest team in the league with an average age of 25.8

Would we find a new GM attempting to retain talent like Bowe, Dorsey, Johnson, etc?

Or are we in "blow it up except for Houston, Hali, and a few select parts" territory?

Do the fans have the stomach for another rebuild?

[Ace Gunner]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

They have 2 terrific pass rushers in Houston and Hali.

The defense is fine when the d-line is stunting and attacking vs. playing 2-gap. It's not a talent issue. It's scheme.

Folks, Tamba Hali is not gonna get it done in the 43 as your RDE. This team needs a guy that can play 34RDE and get after it. And when they do switch, that guy needs to be good enough to switch with it because this team does not have that guy.

This year the team is on pace to have 25 sacks. That is pitiful and it's worse than last season's total of 29.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but the scheme they use is working better than switching to 43 because you just don't have a legit pass rusher.

This team needs a pass rush.

They are dead last in points allowed and dead last in turnovers. That is because they have no pass rush.

You see it over and over. Team after team, QB after QB gets tons of time to mince the Chiefs defense with passing. There is only one way to change that.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Lou_Zare

Folks, Tamba Hali is not gonna get it done in the 43 as your RDE. This team needs a guy that can play 34RDE and get after it. And when they do switch, that guy needs to be good enough to switch with it because this team does not have that guy.

This year the team is on pace to have 25 sacks. That is pitiful and it's worse than last season's total of 29.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but the scheme they use is working better than switching to 43 because you just don't have a legit pass rusher.

This team needs a pass rush.

They are dead last in points allowed and dead last in turnovers. That is because they have no pass rush.

You see it over and over. Team after team, QB after QB gets tons of time to mince the Chiefs defense with passing. There is only one way to change that.

This post makes no sense.

First of all, I never said move to a 4-3. I'm talking about switching from a 2-gap to a 1-gap. In a 2-gap, your D-linemen occupy gaps. They don't go after the QB. So you take three pass rushers out of the equation on every play and you limit your ability to blitz. In a zone blitz or 1-gap 3-4, your 3 linemen attack, as well as some of your back guys like Hali and Houston.

Houston and Hali are exceptional pass rushers. Dorsey would be too in a 1-gap 3-4. Poe could be groomed to be. And DJ, Berry, and Arenas would be effective blitzers. It's not talent. It's scheme. When Romeo chooses to attack, through the blitz or by stunting his linemen, the defense does well. But his scheme isn't built around that.

[jspchief]

I think we have a lot of good skill players. The question is the lines. A lot of people around here give our linemen credit based on perceived potential rather than actual performance.

[oldman]

I'm a fan of the 3-4, so I don't want to give that up. That said, it could use some tweaking as other posters have pointed out. For one, I'd like to see some more middle pressure when we go to the sub-package on passing downs. If all we have is Hali and Houston coming around the ends, the QB has plenty of time to step up. Secondly, I'd like to see Berry moved to FS. I think we're wasting his speed at SS.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I think we have a lot of good skill players. The question is the lines. A lot of people around here give our linemen credit based on perceived potential rather than actual performance.

Our line was very, very good last year. One of the biggest problems is that we lack a true nose tackle -- unbelievable that Pioli has treated this like a secondary priority until this year. But the bigger problem is that they're playing soft under Romeo. The other problem is that Romeo doesn't have time to scheme offenses. We are a very effective second half defense, but only because Romeo doesn't figure out the game plan until it's too late. If he spent all his time scheming his defense, my guess is our defense makes those adjustments far earlier.

I think moving to a 1-gap would be an easy transition. But even if we stay in 2-gap, we can be a hell of a lot more effective. But that's a coaching issue, much moreso than a talent issue.

[bevischief]

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Get a franchise QB and there's no such thing as a rebuild. "Rebuild" is code for "we need a ****ing QB."

Thread over.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

This post makes no sense.

First of all, I never said move to a 4-3. I'm talking about switching from a 2-gap to a 1-gap. In a 2-gap, your D-linemen occupy gaps. They don't go after the QB. So you take three pass rushers out of the equation on every play and you limit your ability to blitz. In a zone blitz or 1-gap 3-4, your 3 linemen attack, as well as some of your back guys like Hali and Houston.

Houston and Hali are exceptional pass rushers. Dorsey would be too in a 1-gap 3-4. Poe could be groomed to be. And DJ, Berry, and Arenas would be effective blitzers. It's not talent. It's scheme. When Romeo chooses to attack, through the blitz or by stunting his linemen, the defense does well. But his scheme isn't built around that.

They have to read and react, which prevents them from attacking off the snap like they could in a 1 gap, but they're not somehow disallowed from rushing the passer once they read it as such. I don't know why people always apply their run responsibilities to the pass.

It makes the rushing the QB more difficult for 2 guys who aren't very good at it anyway, but good players at DE can thrive in the defense and still grab 4-6 sacks and a decent amount of pressure. Dorsey being a pass rusher was always a projection that makes no sense. He had 13 sacks in college. He was never a 1 gap explosive pass rusher in college. He's never shown exceptional explosion in the NFL. I just don't see Dorsey becoming THAT much better in a 1 gap system.

[Hammock Parties]

Dorsey would not be a good pass rusher in any scheme.

They've tried to use him as a pass rusher in the past. He was in the sub rush package on third downs in 2009.

He sucks at it.

He sucked at it in the 4-3 as a rookie, too.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning

Dorsey would not be a good pass rusher in any scheme.

They've tried to use him as a pass rusher in the past. He was in the sub rush package on third downs in 2009.

He sucks at it.

He sucked at it in the 4-3 as a rookie, too.

That's what I see as well.

The truth is Dorsey just isn't as good as he looked like he would be in college. I thought Dorsey would be a dominant player in the NFL when he was at LSU. He manhandled everyone he played against.

[el borracho]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

Crennel ain't going anywhere and if Pioli's contract ain't up, why would Clarky fire him too, just to keep paying him? Do you honestly think the Hunt clan is going to pay Haley, Crennel, and a new HC--AND GET THIS--a new GM (and possibly Pioli too unless the Hunt's have an out clause for not paying him before his current contract is up)?

So, you think the Hunt clan will pay all of the following at the same time:

1. Haley (axed but still getting paid)
2. Crennel (axed but still getting paid)
3. Pioli (axed but will he still get paid?)
4. A new GM
5. A new HC
6. A new coaching staff

Hmmm....

No, I think we can expect the following:
1. 1st round QB
2. New Defensive Coordinator
3. Pioli and Crennel retain their positions

Not what should happen, but it is the most likely, IMO.

[DeezNutz]

If this season continues to be disastrous, not just bad, and fans continue to be explicit in their displeasure (flying banners!, bags over heads, empty seats galore, etc.), Clark might just be forced into firing Pioli to appease the base.

[Chief Roundup]

Originally Posted by mcaj22

good teams like the 49ers, Giants, etc roll out like 5 pass rushers on passing downs.

i thought that was understanding, we are talking strictly rushing the passer not base defense

That is 2. The only 2 that I can think of. That is not "most good teams".

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

They have to read and react, which prevents them from attacking off the snap like they could in a 1 gap, but they're not somehow disallowed from rushing the passer once they read it as such. I don't know why people always apply their run responsibilities to the pass.

It makes the rushing the QB more difficult for 2 guys who aren't very good at it anyway, but good players at DE can thrive in the defense and still grab 4-6 sacks and a decent amount of pressure. Dorsey being a pass rusher was always a projection that makes no sense. He had 13 sacks in college. He was never a 1 gap explosive pass rusher in college. He's never shown exceptional explosion in the NFL. I just don't see Dorsey becoming THAT much better in a 1 gap system.

Well, yeah. That's the point I was trying to make. They aren't put into a good position to rush the passer. I don't think Dorsey would make a good pass rusher because he doesn't have the closing speed. But he could at least create some extra pocket pressure by collapsing the pocket. Dorsey's strength in college was that he has a tremendous first step and he knows how to get into the backfield.

[Ace Gunner]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

They have to read and react, which prevents them from attacking off the snap like they could in a 1 gap, but they're not somehow disallowed from rushing the passer once they read it as such. I don't know why people always apply their run responsibilities to the pass.

It makes the rushing the QB more difficult for 2 guys who aren't very good at it anyway, but good players at DE can thrive in the defense and still grab 4-6 sacks and a decent amount of pressure. Dorsey being a pass rusher was always a projection that makes no sense. He had 13 sacks in college. He was never a 1 gap explosive pass rusher in college. He's never shown exceptional explosion in the NFL. I just don't see Dorsey becoming THAT much better in a 1 gap system.

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning

Dorsey would not be a good pass rusher in any scheme.

They've tried to use him as a pass rusher in the past. He was in the sub rush package on third downs in 2009.

He sucks at it.

He sucked at it in the 4-3 as a rookie, too.

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

That's what I see as well.

The truth is Dorsey just isn't as good as he looked like he would be in college. I thought Dorsey would be a dominant player in the NFL when he was at LSU. He manhandled everyone he played against.

Thanks for setting this str8 fellas.

This defense is absolutely embarrassing this season. This front seven has been just horrible. They have nickle blitzed, dime blitzed, sent everyone it seems and it just has not helped the front seven get pass rush.

DJ has been laughable and Tamba has how many sacks in 4 games -- ZERO???

What we have seen the past two seasons is a team playing well above their ceiling. Sans Jamaal, this team has come back full circle to what each player was. Garbage. Dorsey isn't gonna be in the NFL much longer and other than spot duty, DJ is gonna go to pasture sooner than he should because in spite of all that talent, he just doesn't have game.

Hali has been a great story -- he's got the worst feet of any decent pass rusher I have ever seen. In spite of his shortcomings, he has been spectacular. But, this fantasy has ended. Hali has returned to his god given mortality because teams have figured him out. In fact, they've figured this whole defense out, player by player they just take this defense apart game after game.

Powe has ability, but I don't think he has enough mental horsepower for this level. I hope I'm wrong, but I already see his ceiling.

Poe, Belcher & Houston are the only F7 players I like on this team going forward. Ropati showed a move that surprised when he got that sack last week, but I haven't seen him play enough to comment.

Poe has the mentality & he is quick. He could make noise later.

Belcher is just a guy that has a nose for the ball, speed to get there and can get off blocks regularly. The dude thumps good. Might never be a good cover LB, but not bad considering how young he is now and how few seasons he's been pro.

Houston is another guy that plays smart, has the athletic ability to play LB and gets after plays consistently, both run & pass. He's going to be a good one, I expect.


But the rest of this fronts seven is just laughable. They are horrible -- not because of scheme, not because of coaching, but because they are pitiful players. They suck. Like Cassel, but worse. Dorsey & DJ have literally lost games for this team. They are never going to get better than we have seen. They need to be replaced.

[Hammock Parties]

Tamba has one sack in 3 games. Settle the **** down. Even good pass rushers have dry spells when they NEVER PLAY WITH A LEAD.