Game of Thrones (spoiler-free zone)

[keg in kc]

A few have suggested it, might as well test the waters. The idea is to give people who haven't read the books a safe place to talk about the show.

A few quick ground rules:

• No Spoilers!!!!! for upcoming episodes.
• Larger Song of Ice and Fire discussion should be limited to the other thread although I think a tiny bit of book delving to fill in holes should be okay (example of this would be talking about Catelyn and her treatment of the wolves in the novel, which was alluded to on TV but never really made clear...)
• Everything that happened that week is fair game once an episode airs. So if you don't watch on Sunday night, I'd stay outta here until you do...

[NewChief]

Originally Posted by KevB

Book readers just can't help themselves, can they? It was a rhetorical question, not looking for the answer.

BTW, ignore Sorter as there's nothing so far in the books, that I can think of, that confirms or denies your theory.

[Canofbier]

Originally Posted by NewChief

BTW, ignore Sorter as there's nothing so far in the books, that I can think of, that confirms or denies your theory.

Saying this is indirectly a spoiler in its own right.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by Chazno

I thought the shot of the pie was to show dead doves that had eaten the pie....

It was to show that the little douche killed several doves with his unnecessary slashing of the pie with the sword.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Chazno

I thought the shot of the pie was to show dead doves that had eaten the pie....

Very observant young man

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Canofbier

Saying this is indirectly a spoiler in its own right.

No kidding. Us book readers can't help ourselfs.

[Canofbier]

Yeah, I'm remembering again why I stayed away from even the "spoiler-free" thread. Y'all are jerks.

[AndChiefs]

Originally Posted by Canofbier

Yeah, I'm remembering again why I stayed away from even the "spoiler-free" thread. Y'all are jerks.

I just don't understand how no one saw one of Dany's dragons fly by and drop poison into Joffrey's cup and/or pie. It seemed so integral in the book.

[ModSocks]

Originally Posted by Canofbier

Yeah, I'm remembering again why I stayed away from even the "spoiler-free" thread. Y'all are jerks.

Good thing i read threads backwards. Guess I'll have to stay out of here for awhile. Thanks

[QuikSsurfer]

Because Buck

[BigRichard]

Originally Posted by KcMizzou

Uh, I don't think anybody knows for sure.

You might have found out who didn't.

Originally Posted by NewChief

BTW, ignore Sorter as there's nothing so far in the books, that I can think of, that confirms or denies your theory.

God damn guys, this is a spoiler free zone. By stating we don't know who did it is still spoiling stuff.

[AndChiefs]

Originally Posted by Bowser

This is well done detective work by the guy who put it together, but it IS a bit spoilerish. Click at your own risk.

Yeah I'd recommend against clicking that.

[Bowser]

Originally Posted by AndChiefs

Yeah I'd recommend against clicking that.

Yeah, I watched it again, and it's not so much the images he put together that spoil things(although there is a bit going on there), but the comments about it below.

Like I said, good montage, but you've been warned.

[Bowser]

And I guess there really is power in King's Blood, and I guess Melissandre really does know what to do with it.

[Buck]

You shouldn't even post links to spoilers in this thread. So now I have that ruined for me. I hope it's not a season-long whodunit.

[Hawk]

Here is the weekly scorecard/summary for this episode for those who find these helpful. No spoilers in it.

GOT Scorecard: Season Four, Episode Two
"The Lion and the Rose"

The Dreadfort

Ah, that little scamp Ramsay Snow! He sure does like his games, doesn't he? We are treated to an opening sequence of a young lady fleeing Ramsay and his hounds. If she can get out of the woods, she gets to go free - or at least, those are the stated rules of the game. By his side, Ramsay has the accomplished archer Miranda, as well as his faithful human hound, Reek (Theon). The unfortunate lady takes Miranda's arrow through the thigh, and then Ramsay sics his hounds on her, commanding them to "rip her". Reek struggles to keep his cool at the carnage.

This scene serves to remind you that Ramsay is a deviant and that Theon has been utterly undone as a man by the twisted depredations of his captivity.

This is driven home in the next scene at the Dreadfort - the return home of Lord Bolton. When last we saw Roose, he was playing a large role in the Red Wedding. He's now been given charge of the North by Tywin Lannister. The only problem is that he has the North in name only. The Greyjoys (Theon's family) hold Moat Cailin, a virtually unassailable stronghold at The Neck, which is a chokepoint leading from the lands of the South into the North. As long as they hold Moat Cailin, Roose will have trouble imposing his will.

As Roose dismounts, we are reminded of his cold-blooded practicality. With him is his wife, Walda Frey. Recall that Roose was made an offer by Lord Frey that he would get the bride's weight in silver of the Frey girl he married, and so Roose chose the bride intended to maximize his revenue.

Roose meets Reek, in a sort of Best In Show approach put on by Ramsay. Ramsay puts Theon through his paces, and shows Roose just how cowed Theon is. Ramsay commands Theon to give him a shave, exposing his neck to a newly stropped razor. Just to show off, Ramsay also taunts Theon with the news of Robb Stark's death at the hands of a Bolton...and yet Theon/Reek simply completes the shave, although not without some emotion.

This is an important display for Ramsay. Roose was upset by the liberties that Ramsay took in torturing Theon, who was needed as an important bargaining chip with the Ironborn, and by Ramsay's presumption in trying to negotiate with Balon Greyjoy without Roose's input.

As part of the display of Ramsay's control over Theon, Roose is made to understand that Bran and Rickon Stark are still alive, NOT murdered by Theon as had been reported. Bolton sends his lieutenant to find and kill the Stark boys, who would be obvious threats to his regency in the North. Also implicated as a possible threat and possible protector of the boys is Jon Snow.

Ramsay is sent South to Moat Cailin, given another chance to prove his worth, this time by seizing the Moat and allowing the Bolton armies to move North.


King's Landing, Part One

Tyrion and Jaime dine together. Tyrion proposes a toast to "the dwarf, the cripple, and the Mother of Madness", in reference of course to himself, Jaime and Cersei - the Lannister children. Jaime is depressed, for he has not been able to teach himself the ability to fight with his left hand. Tyrion suggests he get a teacher, but Jaime points out that taking a teacher will cause the news to spread that the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is a helpless fighter.

Tyrion provides the answer - Bronn. Bronn sets up some sparring at an out of the way spot by the sea. He has cause to know that nobody will hear them sparring at this spot . Using sparring blades as if they were youth just taking up the sword, Bronn stirs Jaime's determination to improve, mostly by fighting dirty.

Jaime - "Bold warrior you are, attacking a man when his guard is down"
Bronn - "Best time to attack a man"

Later, Tyrion runs into Varys, who warns Tyrion that Shae was seen leaving Tyrion/Sansa's crib in an emotional state. Varys says it's only a matter of time before Tywin hears of it, and Tywin has informed Tyrion that he will execute any whore Tyrion has in the city.

The Breakfast

Tyrion continues on to the breakfast honoring Joffrey and Margaery's wedding day. Gifts are being given to the happy couple. Margaery's father Mace presents a large, ornate goblet. Tyrion gives Joffrey a book called The Lives of Four Kings. Though the show doesn't go into it, the version presented is an exceedingly rare and valuable copy of the book, one of only four in existence. Joff's gift from Tywin is the other Valyrian steel blade forged from Ned's sword. Joffrey names it Widow's Wail, and demonstrates its sharpness by chopping up the book Tyrion gave him. Because Joffrey's douchiness is so subtle that the show producers felt the viewers might not view him as a villain, he tells Sansa that every time he uses the sword, it will be like chopping off Ned Stark's head again.

Also of note at this breakfast is that Cersei points out Shae to Tywin. Tywin orders Cersei to have Shae brought to his tower following the wedding.

Total Nerd Tidbit - when Joffrey asks the gathered folks what to name his new sword, the first name thrown out is "Stormbringer". Followers of the genre will recognize the name of the sword used by Elric of Melnibone in Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series

Shae and Tyrion

Shae gets some time alone with Tyrion, and offers herself to Tyrion. Tyrion cuts off the foreplay and tells Shae she has to leave King's Landing. He's got a ship ready for her, which will take her to Pentos to live a life of luxury. She refuses. She professes to want to support Tyrion against Tywin and Cersei. Tyrion has to take the cold route - calling her a whore and cutting her to the quick. Bronn escorts her to the ship.

Dragonstone

It's always fire with these people. Here are another three offerings to the Lord of Light, burned at the stake for the heresy of following the Seven Gods. Among the sacrifices is Lord Florent, brother to Stannis' wife Selyse. He was burned for being an infidel.

Over dinner, talk turns to Shireen. Selyse, concerned for Shireen's soul, would like to take a sterner hand with their daughter, but Stannis forbids her from striking Shireen. Selyse suggests that Melisandre should speak to Shireen.

Melisandre educates Shireen on the religion of R'hllor, the Lord of Light. There are not seven gods, only two - the Lord of Light and the Lord of Darkness. And there are not seven heavens and seven hells. There is only one hell, the one they are living in right now.

North of the Wall

Bran has warged into Summer's body, riding shotgun as Summer stalks and kills a deer. Woken from this wolf dream, he hears Jojen and Meera lecture him on his importance to the cause. Jojen tells him that it's dangerous to spend too much time in Summer's mind, that he could become part of the wolf and less than human.

They resume their trek North, and see Summer standing next to a majestic weirwood. Bran orders Hodor to take him to the tree, and he puts his hand on it. He is taken into a vision of the past (and the future? Or merely possible futures?) - he sees himself fall from the tower again, pushed by Jaime. He sees a dragon shadow over a city - King's Landing?. He sees the rotting horse of a White Walker, a flurry of crows, the large room that I believe was in one of Daeny's visions in Pyatt Pree's House of the Undying. The tree tells him to go North. He tells the group that he knows now where they have to go.

King's Landing, Part Two

For the entire second half of the show, we are treated to Margaery and Joffrey's wedding and the reception. The wedding is about one and a half minutes of that. Of note is that Oberyn Martell does not applaud the new couple, and Tyrion does so only reluctantly. You can see Margaery physically will herself to smile. Sansa says to Tyrion "we have a new Queen", and Tyrion replies "Better her than you."

On to the reception. Amid the Renaissance Faire offerings (what? no spinning rope ladder?):



Olenna, the Queen of Thorns, verbally jousts with Lord Tywin. He complains of the cost of the festivities. She reminds him that she's paying half. She also reminds him that wars are expensive, and that the Iron Bank of Braavos sends out the legbreakers when the borrower can't keep up with the vig.
Bronn assures Tyrion that Shae was safely away on the ship. He suggests that Tyrion "drink until it feels like you did the right thing"
Podrick Payne sprains his neck checking out the extremely flexible girl doing the splits.
Lady Olenna offers condolences to Sansa over her brother's death, patting Sansa on the cheek and adjusting her hair and necklace while opining that men already have enough to fear about weddings without including Robb's experience. She invites Sansa to visit her in Highgarden
Margaery announces that all feast leftovers will be given to the poor.
Jaime tells Loras that Cersei would kill Loras before being his wife, and would kill any child of the union. But that's not a worry, because (as Jaime tells him) Loras will not be marrying Cersei. "Neither will you" retorts Loras.
Brienne offers her congratulations to Margaery and Joffrey. Cersei follows Brienne and quizzes her about Jaime and their trip to King's Landing. She asserts that Brienne loves Jaime.
Cersei then moves on to torment Pycelle. She threatens him, then tells him to instruct the kitchens to send the leftovers to the kennels. He points out that Margaery instructed otherwise. Cersei replies - "The leftovers will feed the dogs, or you will."
Joffrey torments Dontos.
Tywin and Cersei meet Oberyn and Ellaria. It's like watching a doubles match with all four players at the net. Barbs are volleyed and returned. Being a bastard, losing the regency, never having such power to lose in the first place, the gout suffered by Oberyn's brother...however, the telling shot is made by Oberyn "Well, everywhere have their differences. In some places, the highborn frown upon those of low birth. In other places, the rape and murder of women and children is considered distasteful (referring to his sister Elia and her rumored death at the hands of Gregor Clegane upon the orders of Tywin)....staredown of Tywin...now look directly at Cersei "What a fortunate thing for you, former Queen Regent, that your daughter Myrcella has been sent to live in the latter sort of place". If you're lost in the subtlety, he basically called Tywin a childkiller and rapist, made fun of Cersei's loss of power, and reminded Cersei that his family controls her daughter's safety in one exchange.
The main show begins. Joffrey has prepared some entertainment. He has five dwarves reenact the War of Five Kings in a manner designed to humiliate Tyrion, rub Sansa's nose in her brother's death, and mock Renly's homosexuality.

Loras leaves abruptly. Sansa does the thousand-yard stare. Everyone over 13 years old looks uncomfortable.

Tyrion instructs Podrick to give each dwarf 20 gold, and says "We'll have to find another way to thank the King".

The joust is over. Joffrey suggests that Tyrion get into costume and fight the winner. Tyrion replies that he's had enough of combat, and that perhaps Joffrey should fight - after all, Tyrion says, he has first hand knowledge of the King's bravery in battle. (Remember Joffrey plaintively insisting that his mother needed him, running away right before Tyrion took over and led the troops into repelling Stannis' army from the walls of King's Landing?)

Joffrey can't play it off. He looks like he's been gobsmacked, and there is an awkward silence. Joff pours wine over Tyrion's head.

Poor Margaery is trying so desperately to distract Joff, but he won't let it go. He insists that Tyrion be his cupbearer. As Tyrion tries to get Joff's goblet to fill it with wine, Joff drops it and kicks it to try and humiliate Tyrion. Sansa picks it up and hands it to Tyrion, who fills it with wine. Joffrey goes full powerplay, insisting that Tyrion kneel before his King. When it starts to get even uglier (if that's possible), Margaery is able to distract Joffrey by having him cut the pigeon pie. Joff drinks from the wineglass and hands it to Margaery. After cutting the pie, he drinks from his wineglass again. Tyrion and Sansa try to leave while Joffrey is distracted, but it's no good. Tyrion refills Joffrey's wine glass.

Joffrey is having trouble clearing his throat. Margaery screams that he's choking. Olenna cries for help. Jaime rushes to Joffrey's side. Cersei cradles him. As he chokes to death, Joffrey points at Tyrion. He expires with burst blood vessels in his eyes, streams of blood and other liquids from his nose and mouth. Joffrey has assumed room temperature.

Lost in the shuffle is that Dontos has led Sansa away, telling her if she wants to live she has to leave now.

Cersei accuses Tyrion, and has the Kingsguard take Tyrion into custody for the murder of King Joffrey.

Who killed him? There is no shortage of motives. Self-preservation? Revenge? Good of the Kingdom? Power?

How was he killed? Poison? How was it administered? In the wine? In the pigeon pie? How many people touched the goblet and the pie?

Regardless of how it happened, the most hated character in television history (IMO) is dead.