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Old 05-12-2001, 06:29 AM  
oleman47 oleman47 is offline
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Public ownership of means of production of goods or services to be shared by all, socialism, arose as answer to the abuses of the industrial revolution and cartel unresponsiveness to public need. This was most prevalent in areas we now call public utilities. As an example, electricity providers refused to extend service to farmers. Water companies refused to extend services to new areas or suburbs. Almost all became regulated as monopolistic pricing was rampant.

We are in an energy crisis which is of corporate failure to provide. The international cartel is limiting crude oil production while wanting subsidies to acquire more. The cartel refuses to build refineries in order to enhance profit margins to drill for more of what they are limiting.

Conoco oil is located in Ponca City, Oklahoma. Not a bastion of left wing eco-wackos. Ponca Citians would love to have a few more refineries. The CEO says that to build more refineries will lower gas prices and therefore restrict their exploration program. While admitting their is more than enough oil, it is just that his company does not own it. This was very honest. And if you were a shareholder, music to your ears. For the consumer, we will screw you if we can.

In the past, the oil companies would not carry enough crude inventory so a national inventory was established for emergencies, which was helpful last summer to hit OPEC over the head with as they continue their eternal exercise in greed. I think we need the same thing now in energy production. Enough energy producing capacity to assure that monopolistic pricing and willful scarcity is blunted. Bush said he is sending 100 billion to some of us to buy gas with. Why not build a few refineries?

Last edited by oleman47; 05-12-2001 at 06:32 AM..
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Old 05-12-2001, 09:52 AM   #16
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Wow. Bravo, Bob Dole!
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Old 05-12-2001, 09:55 AM   #17
oleman47 oleman47 is offline
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I prefer my definition of Socialism, as practiced and not the theory of one philosopher, which tends to be in many dictionaries. But the concept of need is a part of the equation. If your energy or water company refuses to supply you and your community, it has been the American way to tell them to take flying leap and do our own thing. We need gas. There is all kinds of oil around, just need to get it refined? Why let some guy hoping for little more increase in stock value to round out his stock option to some even ten million figure while you and your company go under. Why not band to together and form a more perfect union of need and build your own damn refinery. We use the gov't to do this as an organizational go between.
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Old 05-12-2001, 10:00 AM   #18
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If all can remember, the Brits were sucker punching the colonists before they said no! You all getting waylaid by mumbo jumbo. Sit there and let 'em hit, oooh it feels so good.
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Old 05-12-2001, 10:28 AM   #19
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No doubt.

oleman47-

Clearly you need to give us your personal definition of Socialism, since it it clearly not the classical version tought in school.

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Old 05-12-2001, 10:40 AM   #20
oleman47 oleman47 is offline
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What I have seen on the BBS, is that anything operated by the guvment is socialist. My own dictionary uses the means of production, and yours is more like mine when defining communism. Some are based on the definition of utilitarianism, the greatest good for greatest number. For this reason I did offer a rather long list of examples of current and past socialism that has taken place with full support of the public. A public utility is a perfect example, which might be so well regulated as to be no longer classed as private or like our water company, was a water company but bought out and now owned and run by the city. I personally do not consider SS socialist but owning a water company, ie means of production as qualifying for this label. However, if people want to call all guvment actions, socialist, no problem with me. Most socialist guments lead the world in humane qualities.
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Old 05-12-2001, 10:49 AM   #21
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I saw the title of this thread and knew instantly it was Oleman authored.

I was quite prepared to shower this thread with my running dog capitalist theory and philosphy but I see Gaz is doing an excellent job. Bravura Gaz. Us libertarian leaning conservatives must stick together.

I will only add a quote, hopefully quoted correctly, from one of my favourite philospher/statesmen:

<i>Capitalism and democracy are the worst systems in existance. Except when compared to all the others.</i>

Winston Churchil
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Old 05-12-2001, 10:58 AM   #22
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How about we stick with the tradional definition?

[quote] What I have seen on the BBS, is that anything operated by the guvment is socialist.[/quote]

Dude, it is hard to have a reasoned debate when overzealous hyperbole like that is dumped on the table. The rest of the post is not taken seriously after such a ludicrous statement.

Socialism is placing all resources into a community bucket to be doled out by the government to the citizens in an equitable fashion. The resources are owned by the government, as are the methods of production and distribution.

Socialism would be wonderful if all people were hard working, industrious, honest and trustworthy. Although people are not scum, they are not generally hard working, industrious, honest and trustworthy. Some folks certainly are, but there are more than enough of the lazy, slothful, dishonest and untrustworthy to sink Socialism.

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Old 05-12-2001, 11:17 AM   #23
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Yoswif, raiderhader, and many others have used that definition, so why the rant. I went on to define exactly what I meant. As I did in my original post.

No one answers the question of refineries? Just rants.
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Old 05-12-2001, 11:35 AM   #24
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Gaz
On the solvency of SS, just raise the cap a little and don't spend the surpluses and it will work and would have worked. This is not rocket science. What is hurting SS, is people like Bush who will spend the surplus then say it is broke. Ala Reagan.
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Old 05-12-2001, 12:24 PM   #25
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What surplus?

oleman47-

There is no surplus. There is only overtaxation. The government has no money, so it cannot have a surplus. That is not the governmet’s money, it is mine.

SS is overextended because the government gave benefits to people who did not deserve it.

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Old 05-12-2001, 12:33 PM   #26
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I have been saying for years that the Liberal Leadership of the Democratic Party believes in Socialism ~ They just won't publically admitt it.

Kudos to you Oleman for at least being honest about your agenda. If only your political party would be as honest...

They are dishonest about their intentions because they know the American people would never embrace Socialism ~ therefor, they lie.

What is more reveiling, however, is the justification for this deceit ~ 'The American people aren't smart enough to understand what's best for them. Therefor we will use subterfuge rather than openly proclaiming Socialism.'

The one element of Socialism that hasn't been discussed here is it's arrogance. Somebody (ie. the government) has to make a decision on people's abilities and needs. For anyone to think that they are better able to make these decisions than the people effected is pure arrogance.

Any executive caliber businessman knows that in almost all cases, government regulations serve to limit competition. If my company has already established market share, then I (sometimes secretly) lobby and support more regulation. This makes it much more costly for a competitor to open their doors and take my customers.

If you truly want to open the marketplace for more competition, then start rolling back current gov't regulations.

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Old 05-12-2001, 12:38 PM   #27
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I find it interesting a defender of socialism and socialist policies would presume to know what my definition of socialist policies and socialism is. Nothing like that good old socialist tactic of stereotyping anyone who opposes socialist policies and socialism as someone who hates government. I absolutely love a government that protects the rights of individual human beings, property owners, and communities from the hatred, greed, and corruption associated with socialist policies and socialism.
My definition of socialist policies and principles are policies and principles supported by mainstream socialist politicians, mainstream socialist organizations, and established socialist political parties.
My definition of socialism is where policies and principles supported by mainstream socialist politicians, mainstream socialist organizations, and established socialist parties have been imposed and the people do not have a non socialist political option or non socialist media option.
Why aren't policies and principles supported by the only self described socialist in Congress, Bernie Sanders (I), Vermont considered socialist policies and principles?
Why aren't the policies and principles supported by mainstream socialist organizations like Democratic Socialists of America:

[url]http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html[/url]

considered socialist policies and principles?

Why aren't the policies and principles historically supported by Socialist Labor Party of America:

[url]http://www.slp.org/[/url]

established in 1890, considered socialist policies and principles?

If K-12 education is a service, then the socialist government has virtual total control over the availability and quality of that service.

If the forests are the means of production for forest products, instead of the production of fuel for forest fires as is the current policy, then the socialist policy of government ownership of massive areas of forest land is socialist government ownership of the means of production.
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Old 05-12-2001, 12:47 PM   #28
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Funny, I haven't seen many Americans rushing to different countries to benefit from their socialist medicines and health plans.

Of course, I have seen 7 Canadians, 3 Mexicans, a Brit, and a German all in our facility over the last month for scheduled operations. I wonder why they come to our country?
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Old 05-12-2001, 12:48 PM   #29
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Maybe they don't want to wait until they've been dead for six months before getting the treatment they need.
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Old 05-12-2001, 12:51 PM   #30
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LOL, But Tim, it is SOCIALISM, therefore it MUST work.

Socialism is a great concept, for lazy people who want to live off of others' hard work.
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