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Old 05-04-2018, 11:28 AM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Mueller slammed by Judge in Manfort Case

U.S. judge questions special counsel's powers in Manafort case

ALEXANDRIA, Va. (Reuters) - A federal judge on Friday sharply criticized Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s criminal case in Virginia against President Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, and openly questioned whether Mueller exceeded his prosecutorial powers by bringing it.

“I don’t see what relationship this indictment has with anything the special counsel is authorized to investigate,” U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III in the Eastern District of Virginia said.

At a tense hearing at the federal courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia, the judge said Mueller should not have “unfettered power” in his Russia probe and that the charges against Manafort did not arise from the investigation into Moscow’s alleged meddling in the 2016 U.S. election.

“It’s unlikely you’re going to persuade me the special counsel has unfettered power to do whatever he wants,” said Ellis, who was appointed to the bench by Republican President Ronald Reagan.

Manafort is facing charges in both Virginia and Washington. The Virginia case charges him with offenses including tax and bank fraud.

The other case in Washington accuses him of conspiring to launder money and failing to register as a foreign agent when he lobbied for the pro-Russia Ukrainian government.

None of the charges relate, however, to Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign or possible collusion with Russia. Trump has denied any collusion.

Manafort’s attorney Kevin Downing has argued that the charges must dismissed because the FBI investigation dates back to 2014, and therefore did not arise from Mueller’s probe.

The bulk of Friday’s questions by the judge were aimed squarely at Michael Dreeben, the deputy solicitor general who is currently working in Mueller’s office.

While Dreeben conceded that Mueller had inherited the probe into Manafort after his May 2017 appointment by Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, he insisted the office is on solid legal ground and has the power to proceed with prosecuting the case.

“Our investigative scope does cover the activity” in the indictment,” Dreeben told the judge.

“Cover bank fraud in 2005 and 2007? Tell me how!” Ellis retorted.

Friday marked the third time now that Manafort has tried to get the charges against him dropped.

He first filed a civil case alleging the Justice Department’s order appointing Mueller was overly broad in violation of Justice Department rules, but the case was tossed last month.

He is also seeking to get the Washington-based criminal charges against him dismissed on similar legal grounds that were presented to the Virginia judge on Friday.

The federal judge in Washington, Amy Berman Jackson, has not yet ruled on the request to dismiss that indictment.

Friday, however, marked the first time that Manafort’s arguments about the scope of Mueller’s powers appeared to have gained some traction.

During the oral arguments, Ellis repeatedly chided Mueller’s $10 million budget.

He also asked whether Rosenstein, who oversees the probe and is considered an important witness into whether Trump tried to obstruct justice, is recused from the case.

And he repeatedly claimed that the indictment appeared to serve as a way for Mueller to “assert leverage” over Manafort.

“The vernacular,” he said “is to sing.”

Ellis did not issue a ruling on Manafort’s motion to dismiss the indictment Friday.


But he asked why a run-of-the-mill bank fraud case with no “reference to any Russian individual or Russian bank” could not be handed over to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in the Eastern District of Virginia.

As an example, he pointed to the FBI’s probe into Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen, and mused that the special counsel had turned that matter over to prosecutors in Manhattan.

Dreeben declined to discuss the Cohen case, but said that Mueller’s probe into Manafort was authorized by Rosenstein.

Rosenstein’s May 2017 order laying out the scope of the probe, he told the judge, did not reveal all the details because they involve sensitive national security and counterintelligence matters that could not be divulged publicly, but were conveyed to Mueller.

Ellis balked, saying Dreeben’s answer essentially means the Justice Department was “not really telling the truth” about the probe and invites someone to respond by saying, “Come on, man!”

Dreeben also stressed that Rosenstein wrote another memo two months later, in August 2017, explicitly granting Mueller the power to investigate Manafort’s Ukraine dealings years before the 2016 election.

Ellis complained that the bulk of that August memo he has received was highly redacted.

He directed Mueller’s office to take two weeks to consult with U.S. intelligence agencies to see if they will sign off so that he can personally review a sealed, unredacted version of the memo.

Dreeben told him the redacted portions did not pertain to the Manafort case.

“I’ll be the judge,” Ellis said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I51WE
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:10 PM   #91
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:14 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
If smearing Mueller is fair game, which is what you and other Trumpists have been doing for months now, then why is it not okay for Lone to question the character and integrity of a judge who he doesn't like?

Seems like you want it both ways here.
What's been the response from people like you and him every time Mueller's history has been brought up? "Mueller is a lifelong Repub"......

Seems like you want it both ways here...
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:14 PM   #93
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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Originally Posted by Shields68 View Post
No one said he could not. But it does not mean we can not laugh st his absurd conspiracy involving the Judge and Trump.
It's way less absurd that one Judge would be biased than the entire "deep state" political establishment working in unison to take down Trump.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:15 PM   #94
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
You're assuming logical consistency means anything to Trumpers.
You would need to understand what logical consistency means to even make that statement.
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Originally Posted by |Zach| View Post
All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:17 PM   #95
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
What's been the response from people like you and him every time Mueller's history has been brought up? "Mueller is a lifelong Repub"......

Seems like you want it both ways here...
I haven't questioned the Judge's character or Mueller's. You, on the other hand, are saying it's okay to do one but not the other simply based on politics. In other words, you're being a partisan dope.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:18 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
If smearing Mueller is fair game, which is what you and other Trumpists have been doing for months now, then why is it not okay for Lone to question the character and integrity of a judge who he doesn't like?

Seems like you want it both ways here.


Only one smearing Mueller is himself and his history of this kind of crap.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by AMDChief View Post

Good thing that English is a contextual language. The two articles basically say the same thing.

In the context:

"You don't care about Mr. Manafort"

and

"You don't care about Mr. Manafort's bank fraud"

mean

"You don't care about the crime the defendant is accused of, you just want something to hold over them."
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:22 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
It's way less absurd that one Judge would be biased than the entire "deep state" political establishment working in unison to take down Trump.
No one said that the Judge may not have a political bias. Or that it is not possible to disagree with his rulings. But Loon went further.

Quote:
Its a transparent ploy to get redacted info for the WH, throw up a minor roadblock, and drag out the process.
That pretty much says the Judge is part of a conspiracy involving Trump, without any shred of evidence. So yes we can laugh at such an absurd claim.
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:41 PM   #99
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
I haven't questioned the Judge's character or Mueller's. You, on the other hand, are saying it's okay to do one but not the other simply based on politics. In other words, you're being a partisan dope.
I've never said anything of the sort. Try reading slower. You want to criticize the Judge, feel free. Just don't get your panties wadded like you have when people point out Mueller's history of sending innocent people to jail.
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 05-04-2018, 06:03 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
JFC, I don't believe it. You finally said something logical and something we can agree upon. I'm tempted to almost, think about, maybe, perhaps giving you rep one day.
Just don't drip any on his Birkenstocks
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Old 05-04-2018, 06:14 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
I haven't questioned the Judge's character or Mueller's. You, on the other hand, are saying it's okay to do one but not the other simply based on politics. In other words, you're being a partisan dope.
Your dumbass couldnt question a 3 year old and get it to admit,that it ate the last of the ice cream
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I have an issue with Livesteam.

Last edited by LiveSteam; 05-04-2018 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 05-04-2018, 06:29 PM   #102
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I haven't read this whole thread, yet but did a quick of the first post. Has anyone commented on Mueller using the FISA court for his search warrant?

Quote:
Under normal criminal investigation any search warrant or surveillance warrant would normally proceed through U.S. courts, under Title-3, where the Mueller team would need to show probable cause for a warrant.

However, by using the Title-1 warrant from the FBI counterintelligence operation, as extended by AAG Rod Rosenstein, Robert Mueller was able to use far more intrusive and unchecked searches and seizures for his criminal probe.
That's the pre-existing FISA Title-1 warrant. This site brought it up:

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...e-3-authority/
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Old 05-04-2018, 06:45 PM   #103
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Let's hope Judge Ellis isn't found dead in the next week.
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Old 05-04-2018, 09:31 PM   #104
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While politically handy for the time being, I don't believe much will come of it. Judge seems to be questioning the jurisdictional responsibility more than anything. I highly doubt the Judge throws the case out. At worst, it gets reassigned to the Eastern Virginia district, which, if it finds evidence that goes to the Russian Probe (which it might already and we don't know because the FBI does not discuss ongoing cases), they could refer that right back to them.

So, after Trump has attacked his Justice Dept, and then changes his tune about how wonderful this Judge is, then decides not to throw out the case nor seriously alter it, what will Trump then say about this Judge? Its interesting that when asked why it related as something other than an attempt to squeeze Manafort, they essentially said they believe it does relate to the Russian Probe and that they are just following the money.

Embarrassing, for sure, to get the public rebuke, and certainly gives some
temporary political ammo for Trump, I'll think it is more significant, if the case actually gets thrown out. My guess is it won't.
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Old 05-04-2018, 10:57 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Let's hope Judge Ellis isn't found dead in the next week.
That's a good point. People who **** with Republicans end up with CNN interviews and book deals. People who **** with democraps end up suicided.
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