Re: SNR & everybody who claims that the non-Geno talent atop this draft is "garbage."

[Direckshun]

I recently listed several players that I felt are superior to Geno Smith, all things being equal (including positional value):

Originally Posted by Direckshun

1. OT Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M
2. DE/OLB Bjoern Werner, Florida State
3. DE/OLB Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
4. DE/DT Sheldon Richardson, Missouri
5. DT Star Lotulelei, Utah
6. OT Eric Fisher, Central Michigan
7. CB DeMarcus Milliner, Alabama
8. OT Lane Johnson, Oklahoma
9. DT Johnathan Hankins, Ohio State
10. OG Chance Warmack, Alabama
11. CB Johnathan Banks, Mississippi State
12. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon
13. S Kenny Vaccaro, Texas.

SNR responded by calling most of them "garbage":

Originally Posted by SNR

We're not drafting at #11 overall. We have the first overall pick.

Are any of those guys the best at their respective positions in their draft classes in the past 5 years?

No? How about 3 years?

TWO YEARS, BRO. Can you give me two goddamned years worth of OTs, DTs, OLBs, and CBs and say that any of those players are at the top of the position?

Well, let's take a look, shall we?

QBs taken in the Top 10 of the past five years:

2012: Luck, RG3, Tannehill
2011: Newton, Locker, Gabbert
2010: Bradford
2009: Stafford, Sanchez
2008: Matt Ryan

Top 10 OTs of the past five years:

2012: Kalil
2011: Tyron Smith
2010: Trent Williams, Russell Okung (Anthony Davis @ #11)
2009: Jason Smith, Andre Smith, Eugene Monroe
2008: Jake Long

Passrushers taken in the Top 10 of the past five years:

2012: none
2011: Von Miller, Aldon Smith (Watt @ #11)
2010: none
2009: none (Aaron Maybin @ #11)
2008: Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey

DTs taken in the top 10 the past five years:

2012: none (Poe @ #11)
2011: Marcell Dareus
2010: Suh, Gerald McCoy, Tyson Alualu
2009: Tyson Jackson, BJ Raji
2008: Glenn Dorsey, Sedrick Ellis

(I don't care about CBs or OGs. You don't take them #1 overall.)

Now, the key here is to try to remember each of these players as prospects, not as the players we know they are now.

At QB, who was a worse prospect than Geno of the above players?

1. Luck
2-tie. RG3/Stafford
3. Ryan
4-tie. Bradford/Sanchez
5. Newton
6. Gabbert
7. Smith
8. Tannehill
9. Locker

At OT, who was a worse prospect than Joeckel, Fisher, or Lane Johnson?

The way I would have ordered them as prospects:

1. Long
2. Okung
3. Williams
4-tie. Joeckel/Kalil
5. Fisher
6. Jason Smith
7-tie. Andre Smith/Monroe/Lane Johnson
8. Tyron Smith

At passrusher, who was a worse prospect than Werner, Moore, or Jordan?

1. Miller
2. Chris Long
3. Aldon Smith
4-tie. Gholston/Werner
5. Moore
6. Harvey
7. Jordan

At DT, who was a worse prospect than Richardson or Hankins? (Star is apparently out of commission as a top 10 pick now.)

1. Suh
2. McCoy
3. Dorsey
4. Dareus
5. Raji
6. Richardson
7-tie. Ellis/Hankins
8. Tyson Jackson
9. Alualu

Now on to my broader point here:

This is how I would rank them as prospects as of now. Of course you could adjust your rankings all over the place.

But the myth that Geno Smith is on par with what we've seen in the past while the other three categories are horrendous nightmares compared to your "usual draft," is just that: a myth.

[Saccopoo]

Stafford was also a party boy drunk in college and still is. He's also a statue - which is getting him injured at a high rate in the pros. He isn't close to Geno in terms of mechanics and release. He also has bad pocket awareness.

He's got a million dollar arm and a ten cent head.

Stafford is Nuke LaLoosh.

Geno is a much better prospect at the same stage.

[Saccopoo]

I don't get your hate for Geno Direck. None of the guys you've listed have produced the numbers that Geno has over their college careers. And I don't think any of these guys have Geno's ceiling.

Originally Posted by Direckshun
1. OT Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M
Not even the best tackle on his college team. And comes out of a true spread. He's four years from contributing at a high level - if he ever gets there. He's not Long, Thomas or Okung. He's a poor man's Matt Kalil at the very best.

2. DE/OLB Bjoern Werner, Florida State
Should be a very nice 43 DE. However, he got his sacks in bunches and disappeared for stretches at a time. Still has a steep learning curve.

3. DE/OLB Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
Tweener who doesn't play instinctively. Gets a lot of his numbers chasing down the play, which isn't going to happen a lot at the next level.

4. DE/DT Sheldon Richardson, Missouri
Quit on his college team and if we draft a five tech DE with the first overall pick Dorsey and Reid should be fired on the spot. He's not Seymour - by a long shot.

5. DT Star Lotulelei, Utah
We drafted Poe last year and he's a 43 DT anyway. Can dominate a single team, but struggles against doubles getting pressure - but can hold them up with his strength. Pure 43 NT.

6. OT Eric Fisher, Central Michigan
Central Michigan. Seriously - Central Michigan. Hasn't played against shit and has only shown an athletic ability versus holding up against any type of competition. Huge learning curve.

7. CB DeMarcus Milliner, Alabama
David Amerson is the same guy with better ball skills. Milliner doesn't have elite level hips/feet and speed. He's a very good, solid press cover guy that is going to have to be a #2 in the NFL.

8. OT Lane Johnson, Oklahoma
A converted HS QB, college DE/TE with limited OT reps. Comes from a true spread system. Major learning curve.

9. DT Johnathan Hankins, Ohio State
See Lotulelei above. Nice player, but not long enough for a 34 DE. Another 43 NT. Compares to Marcel Dareus.

10. OG Chance Warmack, Alabama
He's a ****ing guard. A guard! And we've drafted two first team AA guards in the past two years in Asamoah and Hudson. And I seriously doubt that he's as good as Hudson coming out of college. He got a lot better after Barrett Jones moved into the center position.

11. CB Johnathan Banks, Mississippi State
John Banks is a nice player that's very smooth with nice instincts, but he isn't a top 10 guy. No way, no how. I'd take him or Amerson in the second round.

12. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon
A long athletic guy who saw his numbers decrease dramatically this past year as teams started keying on him. Not a lot of experience. A boom bust guy that might not ever produce. Plus you have Hali and Houston.

13. S Kenny Vaccaro, Texas.
You got to be ****ing kidding. Vaccaro isn't close to the player that Geno is for their respective positions. Shit, Phillip Thomas is twice the safety Vaccaro is and he'll be available in the third round.

[Nightfyre]

Demontre Moore: 12 bench reps. Seriously?

[RealSNR]

Chiefs are gonna look seriously stupid when they turn in the card and it doesn't have Geno's name on it.

Berman and Kiper will say nice things about the team moving together after Jovan Belcher, and how Andy Reid is a great coach. They'll pat us on the head and say "They tried." Then they'll stop giving a **** about the rest of our picks for the entire draft.

After recommending we let Albert walk and take Joeckel, Mel Kiper gives us a D- for our draft grade, citing that we're a 2-14 that STILL doesn't have a QB yet

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by SNR

Chiefs are gonna look seriously stupid when they turn in the card and it doesn't have Geno's name on it.

Berman and Kiper will say nice things about the team moving together after Jovan Belcher, and how Andy Reid is a great coach. They'll pat us on the head and say "They tried." Then they'll stop giving a **** about the rest of our picks for the entire draft.

After recommending we let Albert walk and take Joeckel, Mel Kiper gives us a D- for our draft grade, citing that we're a 2-14 that STILL doesn't have a QB yet

Sigh.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

No, I'm responding to the ludicrus bullshit you threw my way, calling all of these prospects "garbage" in earnest.

They are legitimately on par with what we've had in drafts past in the top 10.

And so is Geno. That's the whole point. Every argument made against him can be made against any other player at any other position, whether it's Joeckel or anyone else. Because, while I wouldn't call any of them "garbage" myself, the fact remains that this is a very deep draft with very little in the way of elite talent at the top. If somebody can say "I don't want Geno because he's not Luck or Griffin, it's too risky", I have just as much right to say "I don't want Joeckel because he's not Pace or Thomas, and it's not enough value for the pick".

Beyond that, the funniest part to me is that certain people, who seem to be so intent on finding "value" in the draft, go out of their way to devalue players at the quarterback position. You know, the position that is by far the most valuable in today's game.

[HotCarl]

The arguments for Geno all seem to be related to the Chiefs' franchise's past, and not to him.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by HotCarl

The arguments for Geno all seem to be related to the Chiefs' franchise's past, and not to him.

There's no argument related to him. He's a top prospect in this, or any other, year.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

There's no argument related to him. He's a top prospect in this, or any other, year.

Yep.

Are there any arguments at all in favor of geno that have anything at all to do with KC's history? None that I'm aware of. Everybody that wants him seems to think he's a good QB who will become very good at the next level.

[Dave Lane]

At QB, who was a worse prospect than Geno of the above players?

1. Luck
2-tie. RG3/Stafford
3. Smith
4. Ryan
5. Newton
6. tie. Bradford/Sanchez
7. Gabbert
8. Tannehill
9. Locker

This is the way I see it and the stats back it up.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

At QB, who was a worse prospect than Geno of the above players?

1. Luck
2-tie. RG3/Stafford
3. Smith
4. Ryan
5. Newton
6. tie. Bradford/Sanchez
7. Gabbert
8. Tannehill
9. Locker

This is the way I see it and the stats back it up.

I agree but Geno Smith doesn't have the injury proneness of RGIII & Stafford so I think Geno Smith can have a longer career ahead of those two. I much rather have Geno Smith over RGIII or Stafford now.

[DeezNutz]

If you think that Sheldon Richardson is a better prospect than Geno Smith, you know very little about the prospects in this year's draft.

I've seen every single snap that Richardson has taken at the D1 level, and I wouldn't draft him in the first. Period.

[Ebolapox]

the big yella joint
the big yella joint
I'll meet you down by the big yella joint

[cdcox]

In 10 years, the only players you are going to look at and say "That is THE pick that turned that franchise around" are under the QB column. Maybe it is only a 30% chance, but if it doesn't pan out this time we can try again in 3 years.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Mother**** YOU, Direcksun.
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