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Old 12-28-2008, 11:06 AM  
RNR RNR is offline
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:46 PM   #796
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the reports i hear from jew living in israel, is that the country is united and in agreement on the matter. they are tired of living in fear from near-constant rockets and warning sirens. tired of hiding in bomb shelters
yes, I'm completely non-practicing and I live in the US. I don't deny that Jews in Israel are overwhelmingly in favor of war but vailpass was equating anti-Israel to anti-semitism. I was merely pointing out that a lot of Jews do not blindly support Israel.

I have to take issue with the idea that Israeli's are "living in fear from near-constant rockets." Pretty much every rocket fired by Hamas hits in or directly around the small city of Sderot. >>>99% of Israelis have never seen Hamas rocket attacks.
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:51 PM   #797
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Originally Posted by clemensol View Post
Can't wait to see you guys try to defend this one:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/new...g_election.php



you can go through some of my old posts. i'm pretty sure i've mentioned it before.

as much as it may amaze you, there is actually a sizable portion of jews who don't approve of israel's actions.
Yep. And I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned that I'm actually an democrat.

It's pretty easy to say things here.
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:53 PM   #798
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Originally Posted by clemensol View Post
yes, I'm completely non-practicing and I live in the US. I don't deny that Jews in Israel are overwhelmingly in favor of war but vailpass was equating anti-Israel to anti-semitism. I was merely pointing out that a lot of Jews do not blindly support Israel.

I have to take issue with the idea that Israeli's are "living in fear from near-constant rockets." Pretty much every rocket fired by Hamas hits in or directly around the small city of Sderot. >>>99% of Israelis have never seen Hamas rocket attacks.
Here's the thing. If lunatics in Juarez were lobbing rockets into El Paso, I'd expect people in Philadelphia to be pissed about it.
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:54 PM   #799
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according the report i heard, many of the people do however hear the rockets coming in. when the sirens go off they take for cover. i think they hear rockets up to a few miles off, not sure how far. but that is enough to create fear and terror, wouldn't you agree. they don't actually have to have a bomb hit them to be a successful form of violence.

did you see the rocket ranges link i posted earlier? how long would it take you to get tired of it?
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:33 PM   #800
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according the report i heard, many of the people do however hear the rockets coming in. when the sirens go off they take for cover. i think they hear rockets up to a few miles off, not sure how far. but that is enough to create fear and terror, wouldn't you agree. they don't actually have to have a bomb hit them to be a successful form of violence.

did you see the rocket ranges link i posted earlier? how long would it take you to get tired of it?
People hear rockets coming in... when the people are within a couple miles of the rockets. Rockets are not flying into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem... they are flying into Sderot. So people around Sderot have to take cover and hear sirens many days and undoubtedly there is a culture of fear around Sderot. Thankfully, 99.9% of Israelis don't live around Sderot so a culture of fear does not permeate through most of Israel.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:35 PM   #801
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Here's the thing. If lunatics in Juarez were lobbing rockets into El Paso, I'd expect people in Philadelphia to be pissed about it.
Here's the thing. I never said Israelis didn't have the right to be upset about rocket attacks. I said that the vast majority of Israelis are not living in constant fear of rockets. Just like how I wouldn't be fearing a rocket attack in philly if rockets were being shot at el paso.
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:13 PM   #802
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Here's the thing. I never said Israelis didn't have the right to be upset about rocket attacks. I said that the vast majority of Israelis are not living in constant fear of rockets. Just like how I wouldn't be fearing a rocket attack in philly if rockets were being shot at el paso.
But certainly your Philadelphia-living ass would be willing to serve in a force that would drop bombs and invade Juarez in an effort to stop the rockets from falling on El Paso.


Yeah.

Probably not.
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Old 01-13-2009, 06:29 AM   #803
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The point is, non-interventionist principles such as the promotion of trade are what made the Saudis moderate their stances. This is in stark contrast to other areas in the middle east that have become more radical over time due to US military intervention. Neo-cons deride such ideas as native, claiming that the idea of friendly relations and free trade leading to moderation is just an idealistic "lets hold hands and sing kumbaya" line of thinking... but the line of thinking falls under realism. The Saudis have become somewhat more western because it's in their self interest to do so. Connections with the west=money. Iranians backed hard-liners in 1979 not because Iran was a traditionally hard-line people, but because it was in their self interest to support a somewhat democratic theocracy over an evil US backed dictatorship.
The problem with your naive view is that not everyone is motivated by money alone, or in some cases, at all. I don't have any problem with the idea of trying to use trade to bring us closer to those who are willing, but Saudi Arabia did not moderate as a result of our non-intervention because the west has been intervening there since the country was founded. Instead, they've moderated as a result of both trade AND the interventionist policies we've followed. Their rulers are addicted to not just our money but also the political/military support we've given them. And it's not just a matter of military intervention either. Al Qaeda is no less happy about what they see as our intervention in middle eastern economics and politics than they are about the fact that we had troops garrisoned on Saudi soil during the 90s.

My biggest problem with the Paulian-style non-interventionists is that they believe trade and turning the other cheek solve everything. It's utopian and it's unrealistic. Trade is a great tool. Restraint can be useful. But intervention is a tool too and you're unnecessarily limiting yourself if you don't wisely use all of the tools at your disposal to deal with your foreign affairs issues.
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Old 01-13-2009, 06:39 AM   #804
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I can't give you the specific circumstances of their use in Gaza because, as far as I can tell, there is little information out there besides that they are being used. I can reference Lebanon in 2006 when their were dozens of post-conflict civilian casualties from left over cluster bombs. I can also say that I don't think cluster bombs have ever been used in a humane way.

The fact that the US and Israel haven't signed the agreement isn't an excuse. It only makes it more despicable considering how many countries with woeful human rights records have signed.
We won't ever agree on this.

After the war in Lebanon, the Military Advocate General of the IDF conducted an investigation of IDF's use of cluster bombs in the conflict:

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In a statement, the army said its chief investigator, Maj. Gen. Gershon HaCohen, determined "it was clear that the majority of the cluster munitions were fired at open and uninhabited areas, areas from which Hezbollah forces operated and in which no civilians were present."

It said cluster bombs were fired at residential areas only "as an immediate defense response to rocket attacks by Hezbollah" and that Israeli troops did everything possible to minimize civilian casualties.

"The use of this weaponry was legal once it was determined that, in order to prevent rocket fire onto Israel, its use was a concrete military necessity," the statement said.
If this is true, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I have no problem with the use of these weapons.

In your last post you were talking about how countries do things in their self-interest. I think that serves as an adequate explanation for why the US and Israel refuse to sign the international agreement banning cluster munitions.
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:25 AM   #805
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Originally Posted by clemensol View Post
People hear rockets coming in... when the people are within a couple miles of the rockets. Rockets are not flying into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem... they are flying into Sderot. So people around Sderot have to take cover and hear sirens many days and undoubtedly there is a culture of fear around Sderot. Thankfully, 99.9% of Israelis don't live around Sderot so a culture of fear does not permeate through most of Israel.
Wake up. If only one small town in the US were being bombarded with rockets fired from outside our borders we would all feel it one way or another.
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:53 PM   #806
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Originally Posted by clemensol View Post
People hear rockets coming in... when the people are within a couple miles of the rockets. Rockets are not flying into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem... they are flying into Sderot. So people around Sderot have to take cover and hear sirens many days and undoubtedly there is a culture of fear around Sderot. Thankfully, 99.9% of Israelis don't live around Sderot so a culture of fear does not permeate through most of Israel.

Well then that explains everything!
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:03 PM   #807
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I'd sent rockets in somewhere if they were blockading me. Yup! I call that self defense too.
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Old 01-14-2009, 06:33 AM   #808
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I'd sent rockets in somewhere if they were blockading me. Yup! I call that self defense too.
That's fine. Don't come whining to me when you face the consequences of your actions though.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:11 AM   #809
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Well there is one unintended consequences that I like in this matter: Israel bombed UN hdqtrs in Gaza.

On the other hand I read more than 50% of Gazan's are under age 13. A whole new generation of suicide bombers are in the making.
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Old 01-19-2009, 06:32 AM   #810
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Jeezus, there are some dumbass posts on this thread...See if reading this can clear up the moral fog drifting around your liberal heads (or is that just pot smoke?)....


The Hamas "dead baby" strategy - to cause as many civilian casualties as possible by firing its deadly rockets from schools and densely populated areas - is producing understandable outrage around the world. What is not understandable is why the outrage is directed against Israel, which is a victim of this strategy, rather than against Hamas, which is its perpetrator. Hamas knew exactly what it was doing when it fired more than 6,000 rockets at Israeli kindergartens, elementary schools and playgrounds from behind its own children. It was playing Russian roulette with the lives of Israeli children in order to provoke a defensive response from Israel.

Hamas knew that Israel, like any democracy, would have to take whatever military action was necessary to stop the rockets. As Barack Obama put it when he visited Sderot, a town that had been victimized by more than 1,000 rockets and several deaths: "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing." Hamas also knew that Israel could not stop the rockets aimed at its children without accidentally killing some Palestinian children because Hamas was using Palestinian children as human shields for its rockets. Despite its best efforts to avoid killing civilians - Israel gains nothing from such "collateral damage" and loses much-Israeli missiles have killed dozens of innocent children who were deliberately placed in harm's way by Hamas terrorists.

Hamas also knew that the media would show the dead Palestinian children around the world and cause outrage to be directed against Israel for causing their deaths. Indeed, it had its camera crews out and ready to film and transmit every gruesome image of every dead Palestinian child. Well not quite every Palestinian child! When a Hamas rocket aimed at Israeli children misfired and killed two Palestinian children, Hamas censored all images of these dead Palestinian children, because they were killed directly by Hamas rockets rather than indirectly by Hamas using them as human shields. That is the way Hamas manipulates the media coverage of its gruesome "dead baby" strategy.

The media, of course, serves as Hamas' facilitator. I am not suggesting that the media not show these horrible images, but rather that they should present them with a critical perspective, indicating the actual cause and the real culprit - namely Hamas and its cynical double war crime strategy of targeting Israeli children and hiding behind Palestinian children. A cartoon that is making its way around the internet does a better job of explaining the Hamas strategy than any photograph or video. It shows an Israeli soldier and a Hamas terrorist shooting at each other. The Israeli soldier is standing in front of a baby carriage, protecting the baby. The Hamas terrorist is firing from behind a baby carriage, using the baby as a shield. That is the reality.

The international community - most especially the United Nations, which has done nothing about genocides committed by Muslims - is accusing Israel of "war crimes" for defending its civilians against Hamas war crimes. This too is part of the Hamas strategy which the United Nations facilitates.

If the media and the international community continue to play into the dirty hands of Hamas terrorists, its terrorism will continue and spread. Why not? It's a win-win strategy for terrorists and a lose-lose strategy for democracies. Hamas knows that by attacking Israeli civilians, they can secure one of two results: Israel will do nothing and Hamas will succeed in killing Israeli children; or Israel will respond and inevitably kill some Palestinian children, thereby provoking the ire of the media, the international community and ultimately decent people all around the world who are revolted by the cynically manipulated images of dead children.

The Hamas strategy may now be spreading to Lebanon where twice in several days, rockets have targeted Israeli civilian areas. Hezbollah, which denies responsibility for these rockets, actually originated this strategy in the summer of 2006, when it provoked Israel into trying to defend its citizens and its kidnapped soldiers. Other nations in the world are susceptible to similar strategies, as the United States learned, when it went after the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and discovered that they too use civilians as human shields.

Unless this "dead baby" strategy is exposed and rejected in the marketplace of morality, it's coming to a theater (or school or hospital) near you.

Alan M. Dershowitz is a professor of law at Harvard.
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