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Old 11-18-2012, 09:31 AM  
Hog Farmer Hog Farmer is offline
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Landry Jones > Geno Smith

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Old 12-14-2012, 08:10 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
So you think Luke Joeckel is worth the 1st overall pick?

He's not Orlando Pace or Joe Thomas. Not even close.
i think he actually said the opposite
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:14 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO View Post
i think he actually said the opposite
It's hard to tell because of the way he worded it.

If Jake Long wasn't a #1 and Luke Joeckel is NOT Jake Long, does that mean he's worse or better than Long?

With the way he worded it, it could be EITHER, which is why I asked.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:28 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
So you think Luke Joeckel is worth the 1st overall pick?
I was saying he isn't anywhere close to as good a prospect as Jake Long. Who himself shouldn't have gone #1. When I said the thing about a team reaching for a position of need, I meant Miami in 2008. How you could possibly pass on Matt Ryan (and the Lambs did it too) I have never understood, and that was under the old CBA.

My thinking is the same this year: how can you possibly - especially a team with as dire a need for quarterback as us - justify passing on Geno Smith, or Tyler Wilson, or even Matt freaking Barkley (who I don't like...) in favor of anybody else?

Anyway, I don't think much of the tackles this year. Matthews is okay but nothing I'd draft in the top half of the round. I've seen a lot of Taylor Lewan and he does absolutely nothing for me.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:35 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keg in kc View Post
I was saying he isn't anywhere close to as good a prospect as Jake Long. Who himself shouldn't have gone #1. When I said the thing about a team reaching for a position of need, I meant Miami in 2008. How you could possibly pass on Matt Ryan (and the Lambs did it too) I have never understood, and that was under the old CBA.
Makes sense. I just didn't know from your previous statement if you thought Joeckel was better or worse than Long.

I'm not sure if he's THAT much worse than Long but Long is about the only guy I can draw a real comparison to. And we see how the Long thing worked out (not only did they pass on Ryan but there's a ton of speculation now that his body is breaking down and he's done).

Bottom line: Luke Joeckel doesn't even COME CLOSE to being worth the #1 overall pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keg in kc View Post
My thinking is the same this year: how can you possibly - especially a team with as dire a need for quarterback as us - justify passing on Geno Smith, or Tyler Wilson, or even Matt freaking Barkley (who I don't like...) in favor of anybody else?

Anyway, I don't think much of the tackles this year. Matthews is okay but nothing I'd draft in the top half of the round. I've seen a lot of Taylor Lewan and he does absolutely nothing for me.
Yep. Joeckel is the best tackle in the draft and he's not top 5 material.

If we don't take a LT, then who? Damontre Moore doesn't really fit the defense, does he? Jarvis Jones has medical issues. Star? Are we really going to take ANOTHER defensive tackle? Those are about the only guys outside of the QBs that you can even rationally discuss being top 5 picks.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:03 AM   #110
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:03 AM   #111
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Let's pretend that Jake Long IS breaking down, and that doctors will tell him to stop playing football as early as this year.

Then who was the last #1 overall pick to NOT be a giant bust and also a franchise player for their team for years to come? Meaning they have to play past their first contract.

Jake Long didn't (in this scenario). Mario Williams didn't. Courtney Brown didn't. Did Keyshawn Johnson?
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:04 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by SNR View Post
Let's pretend that Jake Long IS breaking down, and that doctors will tell him to stop playing football as early as this year.

Then who was the last #1 overall pick to NOT be a giant bust and also a franchise player for their team for years to come? Meaning they have to play past their first contract.

Jake Long didn't (in this scenario). Mario Williams didn't. Courtney Brown didn't. Did Keyshawn Johnson?
This is it right here. The nail in the coffin for the idea of taking anything other than a QB.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:23 AM   #113
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The answer to my question, btw, is Orlando Pace in 1997.

These players who came before Pace did not receive 2nd contracts with the team that drafted them. Most of them were abject failures.

Yes, I realize this was a different era of football, but all that proves is that teams didn't value QBs as much as they do now. Drafting DTs and RBs if they were damn good was what you did. The number of non-QBs at the #1 overall spot shows this.

Keyshawn Johnson, 1996
Ki-Jana Carter, 1995
Dan Wilkinson, 1994
Steve Emtman, 1992
Russell Maryland, 1991

It isn't until you get into the 1980s that you see any kind of decent hit rate for non-QBs drafted #1 overall.

Aundray Brown, 1988 (bust)
Bo Jackson, 1986
Bruce Smith, 1985
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:26 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by SNR View Post
The answer to my question, btw, is Orlando Pace in 1997.

These players who came before Pace did not receive 2nd contracts with the team that drafted them. Most of them were abject failures.

Yes, I realize this was a different era of football, but all that proves is that teams didn't value QBs as much as they do now. Drafting DTs and RBs if they were damn good was what you did. The number of non-QBs at the #1 overall spot shows this.

Keyshawn Johnson, 1996
Ki-Jana Carter, 1995
Dan Wilkinson, 1994
Steve Emtman, 1992
Russell Maryland, 1991

It isn't until you get into the 1980s that you see any kind of decent hit rate for non-QBs drafted #1 overall.

Aundray Brown, 1988 (bust)
Bo Jackson, 1986
Bruce Smith, 1985
So here's the next logical question:

Has any non-QB picked #1 overall won a Super Bowl with the team that drafted them, other than Orlando Pace?

I only see one that even played in a Super Bowl and that was Bruce Smith nearly THIRTY years ago.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:32 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by htismaqe View Post
So here's the next logical question:

Has any non-QB picked #1 overall won a Super Bowl with the team that drafted them, other than Orlando Pace?

I only see one that even played in a Super Bowl and that was Bruce Smith nearly THIRTY years ago.
Russell Maryland won three Super Bowls with the Cowboys.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:44 AM   #116
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#1 QB's that won;

Bradshaw
Aikman
Plunkett (another team)
Elway
Eli
Peyton

Here's a list of #1's;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ue_draft_picks
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:49 AM   #117
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I might be willing to call Maryland the only other "correct" pick the Cowboys could have made, actually. Sure, he only lasted one contract, so he was hardly a franchise player. But consider this: they already had a franchise QB (obviously), and the two guys who went in that draft's first round were Dan McGwuire at #16 to the Seahawks and Todd Marinovich to the Raiders at 24 (remember when teams in the AFC West drafted QBs? Yeah, me neither). Also, the only player I would be willing to call "good" in his career in the top 10 was Herman Moore, who went 10th overall to the Lions.

The problem was that the Cowboys had to trade UP to get the #1 overall pick. The Patriots couldn't sign Raghib Ismael, so they traded it to Dallas for Eugene Lockhart, Ron Francis, David Howard, a 1991 first round pick (#11 Pat Harlow) and a 1991 second round pick (#41 Jerome Henderson).
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:55 AM   #118
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Russell Maryland won three Super Bowls with the Cowboys.
Ah yes, I missed his name on there.

Does he count, since he was playing with a QB that was also drafted #1 overall?
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:02 PM   #119
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They wouldn't draft Jones in the Top Ten. No one would The whole point is that he may be available at the top of Round Two and would be a great value pick there. I would rather have Jones and a true #1 pick than Smith at #1 or 2.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:11 PM   #120
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I might be willing to call Maryland the only other "correct" pick the Cowboys could have made, actually. Sure, he only lasted one contract, so he was hardly a franchise player. But consider this: they already had a franchise QB (obviously), and the two guys who went in that draft's first round were Dan McGwuire at #16 to the Seahawks and Todd Marinovich to the Raiders at 24 (remember when teams in the AFC West drafted QBs? Yeah, me neither). Also, the only player I would be willing to call "good" in his career in the top 10 was Herman Moore, who went 10th overall to the Lions.

The problem was that the Cowboys had to trade UP to get the #1 overall pick. The Patriots couldn't sign Raghib Ismael, so they traded it to Dallas for Eugene Lockhart, Ron Francis, David Howard, a 1991 first round pick (#11 Pat Harlow) and a 1991 second round pick (#41 Jerome Henderson).
lol that's so cheap for a first overall pick in '91 compared to now where you'd have to sell the ****ing farm for it.
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