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Old 02-18-2013, 07:55 AM  
Fat Elvis Fat Elvis is offline
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Nothing says "I'm a mouth-breather" quite like being a Republican in Kansas

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...?utm_hp_ref=tw

I keep telling myself, "Well, we've finally hit rock bottom," but then....

I suppose a collective IQ of 70 in the Kansas Legislature would require them to preserve every last IQ point possible....

Edit: I thought for sure that the article came from The Onion, but I can't find anything that suggests it isn't legit.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:52 PM   #46
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
As always when dealing with pseudo science, the arguments are old, tiresome, and thin. I’ll be addressing the most common ones in this article to hopefully restore a modicum of sanity to this banal issue. Can we please take a moment and truly analyze some these arguments we’re hearing?
But Dave, flouride is "toxic!" Aren't all "toxic" things exactly the same?
And if something is "toxic" in large amounts, doesn't that mean it will kill me even if I've only ingested tiny amounts?

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Old 02-19-2013, 01:11 PM   #47
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
As always when dealing with pseudo science, the arguments are old, tiresome, and thin. I’ll be addressing the most common ones in this article to hopefully restore a modicum of sanity to this banal issue. Can we please take a moment and truly analyze some these arguments we’re hearing?


FLUORIDATED WATER WILL HURT YOU!


No, it won’t. This has been one of the most well studied public health measures in the modern era, and the evidence of safety is well documented, both in the short and long-term.

The University of Toronto published this piece titled, The long-term effects of water fluoridation on the human skeleton, just one of several hundred studies that demonstrate long-term safety. What I like about this paper is that the authors expected to find an effect where, “municipalities with and without fluoridated water would reveal a relationship between fluoride content and structural or mechanical properties of bone”. However, honest scientific rigour revealed that there appeared to be no causal link, and the variables are too numerous to be able to conclusively attribute to water fluoridation. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of studies that show how safe water fluoridation is.

FLUORIDE IN THE WATER DOESN’T HELP!

Yes it does. Australian researchers published a recent study comparing municipal water supplies with and without fluoride. Accounting for age, geographical location, socioeconomic status (SES), the researchers found that incidence of caries (tooth decay) “was 28.7% and 31.6% higher, respectively, in low-fluoride areas compared with optimally fluoridated areas.” As with the safety issue, there are studies aplenty in support of fluoridation efficacy.

IT’S TOO EXPENSIVE!

The cost of fluoridating the water equals to roughly $0.94 per person annually (1, 2). Compare that to the cost of a typical dentist visit, which can range from $40 for a filling, $200 for an extraction (3) to $1200 for a root canal (4). Remember, the incidence of tooth decay drops by around 30% because of fluoridated water.
In addition, we know about countless other far more serious health issues directly related to tooth decay, such as heart disease, oral cancer, and diabetes. Consider the cost that these diseases will incur on the health care system and affected families. Fluoride in the water will not drastically cut back incidences of these diseases, but it will reduce them a little. For $0.94 per person/year, that seems worth it to me.

IT INFRINGES ON MY RIGHTS!

The *ahem* ‘argument‘ goes like this: “Medicine should be a free choice that people undertake! Forcing a medicinal treatment onto the masses is unethical”
Presumably, these same people who make this thin argument are also against vaccinations or jumping in a chlorinated swimming pool. I wonder if they’re also against the added iodine in our salt, the added niacin in our bread, the added calcium in our milk and fruit juice, or any other fortified foodstuffs that are ubiquitous in our financially privileged country, but rare in most of the world.

Opponents of water fluoridation will move their goalpost a little further and say, “Why make everyone ingest the fluoride, when a trip to the dentist is much more effective anyway!”

Yes it is, and presumably these same people making the claim can also get their water from non-municipal sources just as easy. Water fluoridation is not intended to replace proper dental care (brushing, flossing, visits to the dentist), but to supplement it, and no health care professional or government official is suggesting that drinking fluoridated water is sufficient dental care.

If you’d like some actual information, and not wild speculations of conspiracy theories, mind control, and an over powerful government acting outside its bounds, Health Canada has some helpful information about the facts of water fluoridation, as does the U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention. If you somehow are under the delusion that Health Canada and the CDC are under the thumb of “Big Dentist”, you can go straight to the source yourself, and do a search on PubMed, to look at the studies themselves. It takes very little time, and the information is very clear.

Even if the motion gets defeated in the referendum, this issue will resurface in just a few years, and the arguments will be exactly the same. Opponents of fluoridation will have learned nothing, and the only people that they will have helped would be….well, nobody. I can’t think of anyone who would directly or indirectly benefit from fluoride being removed from our water.


In anticipation of what will doubtless be many critics of me and this post, you’re wrong. I’m really just a shill for Big Periodic Table of Elements.

1 FAN (Fluoride Action Network). 2011a. Comments on the U.S. EPA's Report Fluoride: Dose-response analysis for non-cancer effects. Submission to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. April 21, 2011 (revised). Online at http://fluoridealert.org/fan-dose-re...s.apr.2011.pdf

http://fluoridealert.org/fan.exposur...ed.4-22-11.pdf
2 Mundy W, Padilla S, Shafer T, Gilbert M, Breier J, Cowden J, Crofton K. Herr D, Jensen K, Raffaele K, Radio N, Schumacher K. Undated. Building a database of developmental neurotoxicants: Evidence from human and animal studies. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Online at http://www.epa.gov/ncct/toxcast/file...ndy%20TDAS.pdf

3 Connett P, Beck J, Micklem HS. 2010. Appendix 1, Fluoride and the Brain in The Case Against Fluoride. How Hazardous Waste Ended Up in Our Drinking Water and the Bad Science and Powerful Politics That Keep It There. Chelsea Green Publishing, VT. 2010.

Ding Y, YanhuiGao, Sun H, Han H, Wang W, Ji X, Liu X, Sun D. 2011. The relationships between low levels of urine fluoride on children's intelligence, dental fluorosis in endemic fluorosis areas in Hulunbuir, Inner Mongolia, China. Journal of Hazardous Materials Feb 28;186(2-3):1942-6.

4 Choi AL and Grandjean P. 2007. Potentials for developmental fluoride neurotoxicity. XXVIITH Conference of the International Society for Fluoride Research, October 9-12, 2007, Beijing China.

5 Beltrán-Aguilar ED, Barker L, Dye B. 2010. Prevalence and severity of dental fluorosis in the United States, 1999-2004. NCHS Data Brief No. 53. U.S. DHHS, CDC, National Center for Health Statistics. Online at http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db53.htm

6 NRC (National Research Council of the National Academies). 2006.
Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards. Washington D.C.: The Naional Academies Press. Online at http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11571

7 see Table 23 from Beltrán-Aguilar et al., 2005

8 HHS (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services). 2011. HHS and EPA announce new scientific assessments and actions on fluoride. News Release. January 7. Online at http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2011pr...20110107a.html

9 EPA OW (Office of Water). 2010a. Fluoride: Dose-response analysis for non-cancer effects. Office of Science and Technology, Health and Ecological Criteria Division. 820- R-10-019, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/fan-dose-re...s.apr.2011.pdf

EPA OW (Office of Water). 2010b. Fluoride: Exposure and relative source contribution analysis. Office of Science and Technology, Health and Ecological Criteria Division. 820-R-10-015, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Online at http://www.fluoridealert.org/epa.exp...e.jan.2011.pdf

10 Kaplan S. 2010. EPA develops neurotoxicants list, new testing. Investigative Reporting Workshop. December 22. Online at http://investigativereportingworksho...oxicants-list/

11 Xiang Q, Liang Y, Chen L, Wang C, Chen B, Chen X, Zhou M. 2003a. Effect of fluoride in drinking water on children's intelligence. Fluoride 36(2):84-94. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/xiang-2003a.pdf

Xiang Q, Liang Y, Zhou M, Zhang H. 2003b. Blood lead of children in Wamiao-Xinhuai intelligence study. Fluoride 36(3):198-199. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/xiang-2003b.pdf

12 Xiang Q, Liang Y, Chen L, Wang C, Chen B, Chen X, Zhou M. 2003a. Effect of fluoride in drinking water on children's intelligence. Fluoride 36(2):84-94. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/xiang-2003a.pdf

13 Xiang Q, Liang Y, Zhou M, Zhang H. 2003b. Blood lead of children in Wamiao-Xinhuai intelligence study. Fluoride 36(3):198-199. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/xiang-2003b.pdf

14 Varner JA, Jensen KF, Horvath W, Isaacson RL. 1998. Chronic administration of aluminum-fluoride and sodium-fluoride to rats in drinking water: alterations in neuronal and cerebrovascular integrity. Brain Research. 784(1-2):284-298. February 16.

15 FAN (Fluoride Action Network). 2011c. Fluoride & IQ: The Studies. January. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/iq.studies.html

16 Bhatnagar M, Rao P, Sushma J, Bhatnagar R. 2002. Neurotoxicity of fluoride: neurodegeneration in hippocampus of female mice. Indian Journal of Experimental Biology 40: 546-54.

Chirumari K, Reddy PK. 2007. Dose-dependent effects of fluoride on neurochemical milieu in the hippocampus and neocortex of rat brain. Fluoride 40(2):101–10. Online at http://www.fluorideresearch.org/402/...2_p101-110.pdf

Inkielewicz I, Krechniak J. 2003. Fluoride content in soft tissues and urine of rats exposed to sodium fluoride in drinking water. Fluoride 36(4):263–66.Online at http://www.fluoride-journal.com/03-36-4/364-263.pdf

Kay AR, Miles R, Wong RK. 1986. Intracellular fluoride alters the kinetic properties of calcium currents facilitating the investigation of synaptic events in hippocampal neurons. J Neurosci. 6(10):2915-20. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/re/kay-1986.pdf

Niu R, et al. 2009. Decreased learning ability and low hippocampus glutamate in offspring rats exposed to fluoride and lead. Environmental Toxicology and Pharmacology 28:254–58.

Pereira M, Dombrowski PA, Losso EM, et al. 2009. Memory impairment induced by sodium fluoride is associated with changes in brain monoamine levels. Neurotoxicity Research, December 2009 (in press).

van der Voet GB, Schijns O, de Wolff FA. 1999. Fluoride enhances the effect of aluminium chloride on interconnections between aggregates of hippocampal neurons. Archives of Physiology and Biochemistry 107(1):15-21. February.

Varner JA, Jensen KF, Horvath W, Isaacson RL. 1998. Chronic administration of aluminum-fluoride and sodium-fluoride to rats in drinking water: alterations in neuronal and cerebrovascular integrity. Brain Research. 784(1-2):284-298. February 16.

Xia T, Zhang M, He WH, et al. 2007. Effects of fluoride on neural cell adhesion molecules mRNA and protein expression levels in primary rat hippocampal neurons. (Article in Chinese). Zhonghua Yu Fang Yi Xue Za Zhi 41(6):475–78.

Zhai JX, Guo ZY, Hu CL, et al. 2003. Studies on fluoride concentration and cholinesterase activity in rat hippocampus. (Article in Chinese). Zhonghua Lao Dong Wei Sheng Zhi Ye Bing Za Zhi21(2):102–4.

Zhang J, et al. 2010. Effect of fluoride on calcium ion concentration and expression of nuclear transcription factor Kappa-B Rho65 in rat hippocampus. Experimental and Toxicologic Pathology [in press; available online March 19, 2010].

Zhang M, Wang A, He W, et al. 2007. Effects of fluoride on the expression of NCAM, oxidative stress, and apoptosis in primary cultured hippocampal neurons. Toxicology236(3):208–16.

Zhang M, Wang A, Xia T, He P. 2008. Effects of fluoride on DNA damage, S-phase cell-cycle arrest and the expression of NF-KappaB in primary cultured rat hippocampal neurons. Toxicology Letters 179(1):1–5.

Zhang Z, Shen X, XU X. 2001. Effects of selenium on the damage of learning-memory ability of mice induced by fluoride. (Article in Chinese). Wei Sheng Yan Jiu. 30(3):144-6.

Zhang Z, Xu X, Shen X, Xu X. 2008. Effect of fluoride exposure on synaptic structure of brain areas related to learning-memory in mice. Fluoride 41(2)139–143. April-June. Online at http://www.fluorideresearch.org/412/...2_p139-143.pdf

Zhu W, Zhang J, Zhang Z. 2011. Effects of fluoride on synaptic membrane fluidity and PSD-95 expression level in rat hippocampus. Biological Trace Element Research 139(2):197-203. Feb.

17 Xiang et al. 2010

18 Xiang Q, Liang Y, Chen L, Wang C, Chen B, Chen X, Zhou M. 2003a. Effect of fluoride in drinking water on children's intelligence. Fluoride 36(2):84-94. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/xiang-2003a.pdf

19 Ding Y, YanhuiGao, Sun H, Han H, Wang W, Ji X, Liu X, Sun D. 2011. The relationships between low levels of urine fluoride on children's intelligence, dental fluorosis in endemic fluorosis areas in Hulunbuir, Inner Mongolia, China. Journal of Hazardous Materials Feb 28;186(2-3):1942-6.

20 EPA OW (Office of Water). 2010a. Fluoride: Dose-response analysis for non-cancer effects. Office of Science and Technology, Health and Ecological Criteria Division. 820- R-10-019, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/fan-dose-re...s.apr.2011.pdf

21 Dean HT, Arnold FA Jr., Elvove E. 1942. Domestic water and dental caries, V. Additional studies of the relation of fluoride domestic waters to dental caries experience in 4425 white children, age 12–14 years, of 13 cities in 4 states. Public Health Reports 57:1155–79. Online at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...01481–0001.pdf

22 Xiang Q, Liang Y, Chen L, Wang C, Chen B, Chen X, Zhou M. 2003a. Effect of fluoride in drinking water on children's intelligence. Fluoride 36(2):84-94. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/xiang-2003a.pdf

Xiang Q, Liang Y, Zhou M, Zhang H. 2003b. Blood lead of children in Wamiao-Xinhuai intelligence study. Fluoride 36(3):198-199. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/xiang-2003b.pdf

Xiang et al. 2010
23 Translated into English and published in 2008; Du et al., He et al., Yu et al.

24 Rocha-Amador D, Navarro ME, Carrizales L, Morales R, Calderón J. 2007. Decreased intelligence in children and exposure to fluoride and arsenic in drinking water. Cadernos de Saúde Pública 23(suppl.4) Rio de Janeiro. Online at http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?s...X2007001600018

25 Rocha-Amador D, Navarro M, Trejo-Acevedo A, et al. 2009. Use of the Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure Test for neurotoxicity evaluation of mixtures in children. Neurotoxicology Nov;30(6):1149-54.

26 Li J, Yao L, Shao QL, Wu CY. 2008. Effects of high fluoride on neonatal neurobehavioral development. Fluoride 41(2):165–70. Online at http://www.fluorideresearch.org/412/...2_p165-170.pdf

27 (EPA, 2010b, Table 6-4, p. 94) EPA OW (Office of Water). 2010b. Fluoride: Exposure and relative source contribution analysis. Office of Science and Technology, Health and Ecological Criteria Division. 820-R-10-015, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Online at http://www.fluoridealert.org/epa.exp...e.jan.2011.pdf

Additional Sources:

Beltrán-Aguilar ED, Barker LK, Canto MT, et al. 2005. Surveillance for dental caries, dental sealants, tooth retention, endentulism, and enamel fluorosis—United States, 1988- 1994 and 1999-2002. CDC, MMWR, Surveillance Summaries, August 26, 2005, vol. 54, No SS-3, pp. 1-44. See Table 23 at http://fluoridealert.org/table23.html - Full article online at http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5403a1.htm

Brunelle JA, Carlos JP. 1990. Recent trends in dental caries in U.S. children and the effect of water fluoridation. Journal of Dental Research 69, (Special edition), 723-727.

Du L, Wan C, Cao X, Liu J. 2008. The effect of fluorine on the developing human brain. Fluoride 41(4):327–30. Online at http://www.fluorideresearch.org/414/...4_p327-330.pdf

FAN (Fluoride Action Network). 2011d. PubMed refuses to include the most referenced journal in a U.S. landmark report on fluoride. Controversy and Censorship in Science: Fluoride and Fluoridation. Online at http://www.fluoridealert.org/nrc-2006.most.cited.html

Gao Q, Liu YJ, Guan ZZ. 2009. Decreased learning and memory ability in rats with fluorosis: Increased oxidative stress and reduced cholinesterase activity. Fluoride 42(4):277–85. Online at http://www.fluorideresearch.org/424/...4_p277-285.pdf

Guan ZZ, Wang YN, Xiao KQ, et al. 1998. Influence of chronic fluorosis on membrane lipids in rat brain. Neurotoxicology and Teratology20(5):537–42.

He H, Cheng Z, Liu WQ. 2008. Effects of fluorine on the human fetus. Fluoride 41(4):321–26. Online at http://www.fluorideresearch.org/414/...4_p321-326.pdf

Komárek A, Lesaffre E, Härkänen T, Declerck D, Virtanen JI. 2005. A Bayesian analysis of multivariate doubly-interval-censored dental data. Biostatistics 6(1):45-55. January.

Li XS, Zhi JL, Gao RL. 1995. Effect of fluoride exposure on intelligence in children. Fluoride. 28(4):189-192. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/li-1995.pdf

Liu YJ, Gao Q, Wu CX, Guan ZZ. 2010. Alterations of nAChRs and ERK1/2 in the brains of rats with chronic fluorosis and their connections with the decreased capacity of learning and memory. Toxicology Letters192(3):324–29.

Mullenix P, Denbesten PK, Schunior A, Kernan WJ. 1995. Neurotoxicity of sodium fluoride in rats. Neurotoxicology and Teratology 17(2):169-177. Mar-Apr.

Yu Y, Yang W, Dong Z, Wan C, Zhang J, Liu J, Xian K, Huang Y, Lu B. 2008. Neurotransmitter and receptor changes in the brains of fetuses from areas of endemic fluorosis. Fluoride 41(2):134–38. Online at http://www.fluorideresearch.org/412/...2_p134-138.pdf

Zhao LB, Liang GH, Zhang DN, Wu XR. 1996. Effect of high-fluoride water supply on children's intelligence. Fluoride 29(4):190-192. Online at http://fluoridealert.org/scher/zhao-1996.pdf
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"If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:19 PM   #48
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How many of those have you read?

And have you read the 10,000+ that say its fine including the scientists who allow it to be given to their children?
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:39 PM   #49
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How many of those have you read?

And have you read the 10,000+ that say its fine including the scientists who allow it to be given to their children?
Welcome to the 1800's how many wouldn't allow their children to be bled, cures many ills ya know.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #50
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:45 PM   #51
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But Dave, flouride is "toxic!" Aren't all "toxic" things exactly the same?
And if something is "toxic" in large amounts, doesn't that mean it will kill me even if I've only ingested tiny amounts?

/Killer_Clown
Water is toxic in deep enough quantities.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:48 PM   #52
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Water is toxic in deep enough quantities.
I mentioned that earlier. He wasn't moved.
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As long as Jesus Christ was the president of the US and approved of it Yes.
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