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Old 05-22-2014, 09:33 PM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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What's better since the Democrats took power in 2008?

I'll start with the stock market. My investments in big corporations are doing well.

Name your own. Go.
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:14 PM   #181
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:41 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Yet, at the same time, we could say gas under Obama is less.

Just for perspective, what % did gas prices rise from the low of Clinton to the $4+ under Bush?
I don't have data for the Clinton years, but I can tell you this (numbers are approximate).

Beginning of Bush 2nd term: $1.70
End of Bush 2nd term: $1.70

Beginning of Obama 1st term: $1.70
End of Obama 1st term: $3.30

Beginning of Obama 2nd term: $3.30
Now: $3.60
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:01 AM   #183
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I don't have data for the Clinton years, but I can tell you this (numbers are approximate).

Beginning of Bush 2nd term: $1.70
End of Bush 2nd term: $1.70

Beginning of Obama 1st term: $1.70
End of Obama 1st term: $3.30

Beginning of Obama 2nd term: $3.30
Now: $3.60
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:02 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
We've had 5 years of increasing regulation and increasing taxes (the opposite of supply side economics), and yet the middle class and small business continue to be squeezed and wealth inequality is growing.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:03 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by fan4ever View Post
They controlled the senate and could have easily kept the war from happening had they voted in unison...and the point was made that the information was faulty...apparently the intel was good enough for these prominent democrats to go on record for years...but of course once it became political advantageous, they pulled a 180.
So now your changing your argument from Congress, to senate.

I can't keep up with your goalpost moving.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:07 AM   #186
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I prefer to think, and honestly do believe, that it was just bad intel, with some degree of personal preferences perhaps influencing the analysis of that intel. I prefer to believe, absent overwhelming evidence, that public officials are generally trying to do the "right" thing when it comes to the really big picture stuff. Sure there is corruption large and small and all that, but to intentionally invade Iraq based entirely on a pretext is something I ascribe to the Hitlers of the world, not G.W. Bush.

The then-director of the CIA, George Tenet, was a Clinton appointee, I note.

I think at the end of the day "mistaken" is a better adjective than "intentionally misleading", for what happened. The issue in my mind becomes whether the mistakes were somewhat/partly/largely/mostly the result of results-oriented analysis. That's a question that can never really be answered.
I'm sorry, but they were straight up lies.

Here are just two examples:

LIE #1: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." -- President Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in Cincinnati.

FACT: This story, leaked to and breathlessly reported by Judith Miller in the New York Times, has turned out to be complete baloney. Department of Energy officials, who monitor nuclear plants, say the tubes could not be used for enriching uranium. One intelligence analyst, who was part of the tubes investigation, angrily told The New Republic: "You had senior American officials like Condoleezza Rice saying the only use of this aluminum really is uranium centrifuges. She said that on television. And that's just a lie."

LIE #2: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -- President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address.

FACT: This whopper was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler, the document carried the signature of an official who had been out of office for 10 years and referenced a constitution that was no longer in effect. The ex-ambassador who the CIA sent to check out the story is pissed: "They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," he told the New Republic, anonymously. "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly."


http://www.alternet.org/story/16274/...old_about_iraq


They were lying and knew they were lying.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:08 AM   #187
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Yes, I'm saying that. I'm also saying that gas prices doubled under Obama.
It's like you don't understand what the economy crashing in 2008 would do to the price of fuel.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:14 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I don't have data for the Clinton years, but I can tell you this (numbers are approximate).

Beginning of Bush 2nd term: $1.70
End of Bush 2nd term: $1.70

Beginning of Obama 1st term: $1.70
End of Obama 1st term: $3.30

Beginning of Obama 2nd term: $3.30
Now: $3.60


This whole discussion regarding gas prices -- were they high under Bush, are they high now under Obama, is a complete waste of time and effort.

FIRST, Gas in inflation-adjusted dollars has tended over the long history of the automobile to be between $2.00 and $3.00 in 2013 dollars. We're a little north of that now, but comparing the price of gas to the relatively long period of AMAZINGLY low gas prices that existed from the mid-80s to the mid-90s is foolish. See chart below.

SECOND, the President and his policies aren't really going to have a dramatic effect on gas prices over the long term. Sure, you can move the needle a few cents either way by doing various things, but WORLDWIDE oil production and demand is what establishes gas prices, not just what we do in the U.S.

THIRD, the increasing industrialization of third world countries (which for this purpose includes China) and their vastly increased oil consumption is a key driver of increasing gas prices, and there's nothing WE can do about that. In fact, the US has become much, much more energy (and gas) efficient over the years, and gas consumed has increased at a much more gradual rate than the miles driven.

So all this bickering over the precise price of gas on any given day relative to any given President's inauguration, etc., etc. is nothing more than irrelevant noise, really.

(I specifically note that while I'm responding to Pat's post, my comments are directed at everyone involved in this discussion).


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Old 05-29-2014, 07:31 AM   #189
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So then can we say, that the Fed under Obama, in order to fund his spending via inflation, has increased gas prices?

If we didn't monetize the debt gas prices would have dropped.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:41 AM   #190
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
So then can we say, that the Fed under Obama, in order to fund his spending via inflation, has increased gas prices?

If we didn't monetize the debt gas prices would have dropped.

No, we can't.

First, the chart is in inflation adjusted dollars. In other words, gas has gone up consistently over the last ten years regardless of whatever the fed is doing.

Second, the Fed isn't "under Obama". It's an independent agency and at least somewhat insulated from politics. See Volcker, and Carter.

Third, no matter what you may think, the Fed isn't responsible for every economic cause and effect around the world.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:58 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I don't have data for the Clinton years, but I can tell you this (numbers are approximate).

Beginning of Bush 2nd term: $1.70
End of Bush 2nd term: $1.70

Beginning of Obama 1st term: $1.70
End of Obama 1st term: $3.30

Beginning of Obama 2nd term: $3.30
Now: $3.60
Cherry pick dates much?


And just so you can see the drop (remember the crash?)

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Old 05-29-2014, 08:44 AM   #192
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Gas is just one of many things that get batted around out of Context. Generally speaking the first year of a budget is counted against the previous administration. As is often done for the first year of the Obama administration where the blame for the debt/ deficit is attributed to W. This normally would be fair except that W’s budget was never signed by him as the congress decided it just wasn’t big enough and needed a few hundred billion more. So honestly some sharing of the blame for that year is appropriate. So that makes the claims of deficit reduction compared to that year seem rather on the BS side.

A good Example would be if you have a kid at college that you have given a Credit Card to for emergencies that month after month runs up a $700 bill going to Taco Bell. After doing this for a year or two they then has a month where their car breaks down so they have another $1000 on top of the Fast food bill bringing that monthly total to $1700. So over the next few months they work their way down to only spending about $800 - $900 worth of crap they are not paying for, I’m not overly impressed with their lower percentage of overspending my money. This is pretty much what were are supposed to be impressed with regarding deficit “reduction”
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Old 05-29-2014, 09:16 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post

So all this bickering over the precise price of gas on any given day relative to any given President's inauguration, etc., etc. is nothing more than irrelevant noise, really.

(I specifically note that while I'm responding to Pat's post, my comments are directed at everyone involved in this discussion).
I know that, but your reasoning is generally not the kind that is appreciated around here. It's easier to cherry pick the dates and numbers to say that gas went from $1.70 under W to $3.60 under Obama--just like gas went from 90 cents under Clinton to $4+ under W.
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Old 05-29-2014, 09:27 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I'm sorry, but they were straight up lies.

Here are just two examples:

LIE #1: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." -- President Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in Cincinnati.

FACT: This story, leaked to and breathlessly reported by Judith Miller in the New York Times, has turned out to be complete baloney. Department of Energy officials, who monitor nuclear plants, say the tubes could not be used for enriching uranium. One intelligence analyst, who was part of the tubes investigation, angrily told The New Republic: "You had senior American officials like Condoleezza Rice saying the only use of this aluminum really is uranium centrifuges. She said that on television. And that's just a lie."

LIE #2: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -- President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address.

FACT: This whopper was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler, the document carried the signature of an official who had been out of office for 10 years and referenced a constitution that was no longer in effect. The ex-ambassador who the CIA sent to check out the story is pissed: "They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," he told the New Republic, anonymously. "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly."


http://www.alternet.org/story/16274/...old_about_iraq


They were lying and knew they were lying.
You are clueless about real life. So easily misled.

1. Sure, the Dept. of Energy didn't believe that the tubes were intended for centrifuges. That's what is called a minority opinion. The consensus from the intelligence community was that they were and DOE's dissent was included in the intelligence estimate.

2. Those 16 words were based on an assessment shared by British intelligence, not on a forgery. British intelligence stood by their assessment long after that speech and the Brit's Butler Report concluded that Bush's statement was "well founded".
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Old 05-29-2014, 09:28 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
It's like you don't understand what the economy crashing in 2008 would do to the price of fuel.
No, it's not like that at all.
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