PFT take on King Carl v Saban

SBK · 04-03-2005, 11:37 AM

CHIEFS, FINS NEED A FACE-SAVER With the Chiefs and cornerback Patrick Surtain in agreement on a long-term deal, the only obstacle to consummation is the fact that Surtain is still the property of the Dolphins. And the two teams have their heels dug in tighter than a six-year-old who's been asked to kiss Auntie Moustache. The Fins want a second-round pick and won't budge. The Chiefs will give up a four. And won't budge. A reasonable person might look at this situation and conclude that a third-rounder will get it done. But reasonableness goes out the window when marble-headed guys like the Nicktator and King Carl are at the bargaining table, even if the Chiefs had a third-rounder which they could trade (which they don't, due to the John Wellbourn trade). So, as one league insider 'splained to us, the two sides will need a way to create the impression that they got that they wanted (or more) without giving up anything of consequence. A superficial meeting in the middle, in order words, likely won't be enough. Instead, it will require some creativity, possibly introduced through an intermediary. Perhaps the deal happens with a fourth-round pick now and a conditional second-rounder in 2005, based on Surtain's playing time or picks. Then, it's a win-win -- if the Chiefs end up giving up more down the road, it's only because Surtain has exceeded expectations in K.C. Either way, stubbornness simply won't git 'er done. A second-round pick is too much for a guy whom the team has written out of its plans for the future. A fourth-round pick, however, is too low, given that the Pats gave up a third-round pick a month ago for Duane Starks. Even though the stakes are slightly different, the psychological realities at play here are no different than the stare-down in which Kennedy and Kruschev engaged when the Soviets started shipping certain oversized cigars into Cuba. Whether the issue is the location of a 28-year-old cornerback or the destruction of a multimillion-year-old planet, hard-headed men would rather do stupid than be perceived weak. So a resolution to this one is hardly a no-brainer, and it will require a solution that enables both Saban and Peterson to persuade themselves (and, more importantly, others) that they got the better end of the bargain.

04-03-2005, 11:41 AM

Nice. Seems like a pretty good read on the situation.

keg in kc · 04-03-2005, 11:41 AM

Yeah, I think that about sums it up.

God, it's hard to type that without my usual PFT blast.

Deberg_1990 · 04-03-2005, 11:44 AM

Wasnt Surtain a 2nd rounder himself? Plus hes a Pro-Bowler right?? Why should the Fins want a 4th rounder for him then?? Typical Carl Low-Ball tactics. This is why we havent won crap in 16 years.

SBK · 04-03-2005, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Yeah, I think that about sums it up.

God, it's hard to type that without my usual PFT blast.

I figured I'd see some good whacks directed at those guys....

This one seemed to be bout dead on. I don't know too many folks here that think a 2nd rounder is too high a price, or that a 4 isn't a low ball offer. Guess there's other folks that aren't KC homers out there that see it the same way.

keg in kc · 04-03-2005, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortbuskid

I don't know too many folks here that think a 2nd rounder is too high a price

I do because of the contract, like I outlined on the other thread. I think if anyone in the league believed he warranted a second round pick he'd have been traded a month ago, even with the free agent market what it was.

Quote:

or that a 4 isn't a low ball offer.

Oh, it is lowball, but it's the best we can do until we get into next year's picks (which I hope we are...).

Frankie · 04-03-2005, 11:58 AM

Welbourn better end up being a solid, long term replacement for Shields, with what he has cost us.

Frankie · 04-03-2005, 11:59 AM

How about Surtain for Welbourn and Bartee?

ArrowheadHawk · 04-03-2005, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie

How about Surtain for Welbourn and Bartee?

works for me

**The Bad Guy** · 04-03-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

I do because of the contract, like I outlined on the other thread. I think if anyone in the league believed he warranted a second round pick he'd have been traded a month ago, even with the free agent market what it was.Oh, it is lowball, but it's the best we can do until we get into next year's picks (which I hope we are...).

A 4th is the best we can do?

I think that's reaching a tad bit.

**The Bad Guy** · 04-03-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie

How about Surtain for Welbourn and Bartee?

That sound you hear is Nick Saban laughing his ass of.

Frankie · 04-03-2005, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

A 4th is the best we can do?

I think that's reaching a tad bit.

We would offer a three if we had a tradeable one. And I bet they would take it. The Welbourn trade has cost us more than you think.

Frankie · 04-03-2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

That sound you hear is Nick Saban laughing his ass of.

Depends on if they can use a supposedly solid OG. After all Welbourn is technically the third rounder that we could have otherwise offered them.

HolmeZz · 04-03-2005, 12:24 PM

They want draft picks.

Wilson8 · 04-03-2005, 12:26 PM

I wrote this the other night but did not post it because of time.

It seems that the trade of Patrick Surtain to the Kansas City Chiefs would be good for both clubs. KC gets the cornerback they need and Miami gets lower cost players/draft picks and salary cap help.

Everyone that is following this process already knows this information. The problem that we have is that we have Carl Peterson that wants to maintain his image as a tough negotiator and a young coach/administrator in Nick Saban that can not afford to begin his image by letting another club force them into a less favorable trade. Both clubs need to come out looking like they have won in this situation.

When things get tough what group can be counted on to perform for the Kansas City Chiefs? KC should once again rely on the offensive line to help bail them out of this situation.

Miami’s offensive line is made up of Vernon Carey, Seth McKinney, Rex Hadnot, John St. Clair, Jeno James, Damion McIntosh, Wade Smith, Greg Jerman, and Taylor Whitley. It is no secret that the Dolphin’s offensive line could use help.

Kansas City does not need to give up one of their starters to make this deal happen. KC needs to keep that group together and probably could not afford the cap hit that would happen with such a trade. That leaves Kevin Sampson, Brett Williams, Chris Bober, and John Welbourn. Chris Bober received a sizeable bonus on a five year deal last year. Like KC’s starters, Bober’s cap hit would be prohibitive to a trade. Brett Williams has not played enough to warrant any trade value. The Chiefs seem to be high on Kevin Sampson, but he only played in one more game than Williams and also does not have a lot of trade value. That leaves John Welbourn as the top choice to be traded. John’s salary for 2005 is $1,200,000 for this year. His total cap value for 2005 is $1,206,400 which means that his cap hit to trade, would be very little. Currently John Welbourn is not projected to be a starter for Kansas City. If the Philadelphia Eagles were willing to trade John because he wanted to make more money, should the Chiefs be concerned about his attitude if they demote him to the bench?

Now why would Miami want John Welbourn? John could start for Miami. As proven in Kansas City, his best position is probably at guard. He has started in 66 games for two pretty good offensive lines. He can play other positions if they really need it. He is relatively young for an offensive lineman. He is only one year older than Brian Waters. He still has four years left on his contract at a pretty reasonable price, $1,200,000, $1,400,000, $1,700,000, and $2,000,000. If Kansas City combined John Welbourn with additional draft picks, it allows Miami to add to their offensive line plus obtain their much needed draft picks. This type of trade would allow both clubs to maintain face and strengthen their team.

The one remaining question for Kansas City is; what are Will Shield’s future intentions? If Will plans to retire this year, then Welbourn becomes much more valuable to KC. Hopefully Kansas City can talk with Mr. Shields and resolve this question.

04-03-2005, 11:37 AM
SBK Curry is the pick??? Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Casino cash: $10004900	PFT take on King Carl v Saban CHIEFS, FINS NEED A FACE-SAVER With the Chiefs and cornerback Patrick Surtain in agreement on a long-term deal, the only obstacle to consummation is the fact that Surtain is still the property of the Dolphins. And the two teams have their heels dug in tighter than a six-year-old who's been asked to kiss Auntie Moustache. The Fins want a second-round pick and won't budge. The Chiefs will give up a four. And won't budge. A reasonable person might look at this situation and conclude that a third-rounder will get it done. But reasonableness goes out the window when marble-headed guys like the Nicktator and King Carl are at the bargaining table, even if the Chiefs had a third-rounder which they could trade (which they don't, due to the John Wellbourn trade). So, as one league insider 'splained to us, the two sides will need a way to create the impression that they got that they wanted (or more) without giving up anything of consequence. A superficial meeting in the middle, in order words, likely won't be enough. Instead, it will require some creativity, possibly introduced through an intermediary. Perhaps the deal happens with a fourth-round pick now and a conditional second-rounder in 2005, based on Surtain's playing time or picks. Then, it's a win-win -- if the Chiefs end up giving up more down the road, it's only because Surtain has exceeded expectations in K.C. Either way, stubbornness simply won't git 'er done. A second-round pick is too much for a guy whom the team has written out of its plans for the future. A fourth-round pick, however, is too low, given that the Pats gave up a third-round pick a month ago for Duane Starks. Even though the stakes are slightly different, the psychological realities at play here are no different than the stare-down in which Kennedy and Kruschev engaged when the Soviets started shipping certain oversized cigars into Cuba. Whether the issue is the location of a 28-year-old cornerback or the destruction of a multimillion-year-old planet, hard-headed men would rather do stupid than be perceived weak. So a resolution to this one is hardly a no-brainer, and it will require a solution that enables both Saban and Peterson to persuade themselves (and, more importantly, others) that they got the better end of the bargain.
Posts: 8,153

04-03-2005, 11:41 AM	#2
Phobia Guest Casino cash: $	Nice. Seems like a pretty good read on the situation.
Posts: n/a

04-03-2005, 11:41 AM	#3
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	Yeah, I think that about sums it up. God, it's hard to type that without my usual PFT blast.
Posts: 58,682

04-03-2005, 11:44 AM	#4
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $3914454	Wasnt Surtain a 2nd rounder himself? Plus hes a Pro-Bowler right?? Why should the Fins want a 4th rounder for him then?? Typical Carl Low-Ball tactics. This is why we havent won crap in 16 years. __________________ Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning: Matt once made a very nice play in Seattle where he spun away from a pass rusher and hit Bowe off his back foot for a first down. One of the best plays Matt has ever made.
Posts: 66,914

04-03-2005, 11:58 AM	#7
Frankie Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Casino cash: $10004900	Welbourn better end up being a solid, long term replacement for Shields, with what he has cost us.
Posts: 26,959

04-03-2005, 11:59 AM	#8
Frankie Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Casino cash: $10004900	How about Surtain for Welbourn and Bartee?
Posts: 26,959

04-03-2005, 12:24 PM	#14
HolmeZz i guess its bittersweet poetry Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: NeW HaVeN, CT Casino cash: $10004900	They want draft picks.
Posts: 16,520

04-03-2005, 12:26 PM	#15
Wilson8 Veteran Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $3647557	I wrote this the other night but did not post it because of time. It seems that the trade of Patrick Surtain to the Kansas City Chiefs would be good for both clubs. KC gets the cornerback they need and Miami gets lower cost players/draft picks and salary cap help. Everyone that is following this process already knows this information. The problem that we have is that we have Carl Peterson that wants to maintain his image as a tough negotiator and a young coach/administrator in Nick Saban that can not afford to begin his image by letting another club force them into a less favorable trade. Both clubs need to come out looking like they have won in this situation. When things get tough what group can be counted on to perform for the Kansas City Chiefs? KC should once again rely on the offensive line to help bail them out of this situation. Miami’s offensive line is made up of Vernon Carey, Seth McKinney, Rex Hadnot, John St. Clair, Jeno James, Damion McIntosh, Wade Smith, Greg Jerman, and Taylor Whitley. It is no secret that the Dolphin’s offensive line could use help. Kansas City does not need to give up one of their starters to make this deal happen. KC needs to keep that group together and probably could not afford the cap hit that would happen with such a trade. That leaves Kevin Sampson, Brett Williams, Chris Bober, and John Welbourn. Chris Bober received a sizeable bonus on a five year deal last year. Like KC’s starters, Bober’s cap hit would be prohibitive to a trade. Brett Williams has not played enough to warrant any trade value. The Chiefs seem to be high on Kevin Sampson, but he only played in one more game than Williams and also does not have a lot of trade value. That leaves John Welbourn as the top choice to be traded. John’s salary for 2005 is $1,200,000 for this year. His total cap value for 2005 is $1,206,400 which means that his cap hit to trade, would be very little. Currently John Welbourn is not projected to be a starter for Kansas City. If the Philadelphia Eagles were willing to trade John because he wanted to make more money, should the Chiefs be concerned about his attitude if they demote him to the bench? Now why would Miami want John Welbourn? John could start for Miami. As proven in Kansas City, his best position is probably at guard. He has started in 66 games for two pretty good offensive lines. He can play other positions if they really need it. He is relatively young for an offensive lineman. He is only one year older than Brian Waters. He still has four years left on his contract at a pretty reasonable price, $1,200,000, $1,400,000, $1,700,000, and $2,000,000. If Kansas City combined John Welbourn with additional draft picks, it allows Miami to add to their offensive line plus obtain their much needed draft picks. This type of trade would allow both clubs to maintain face and strengthen their team. The one remaining question for Kansas City is; what are Will Shield’s future intentions? If Will plans to retire this year, then Welbourn becomes much more valuable to KC. Hopefully Kansas City can talk with Mr. Shields and resolve this question.
Posts: 3,920