Chiefs Albert Breer article on paying qbs. - Page 3

O.city · 11-16-2013, 03:24 PM

DJ, myself a few others had a conversation about this the other day, now Breer talking about it. He must read CP. Anyway, discuss

Albert Breer.

It isn't far-fetched to think Jay Cutler's departure from last Sunday's game against Detroit could lead to a larger-scale exodus from Chicago for the mercurial quarterback.

As it stands, he's had eight starts for new coach Marc Trestman, and a high ankle sprain has landed him in a walking boot. The coach said that Cutler is still the Bears' quarterback. For how much longer is the question.

Chicago isn't alone here.

The salary cap has stayed relatively flat the past three years, and while the middle class has been squeezed and the league has gotten younger across the board, the price tag on quarterbacks has continued to rise. That has turned up the pressure on teams to get it right at the game's most important position.

The decision of whether or not to double down on a passer, which has always been a high-stakes game, is now marked by the economic reality of one player eating up an average of $20 million per year while the cap hovers just above $120 million.

"Any player you sign, no matter how much it's for, you wanna be right. But for that much money, you really have to be," an AFC general manager said. "Say you run a 3-4. Well, now, that's harder, because you need more blue-chippers -- a lockdown corner, pass-rushers. A lot of 3-4s are complicated, so you might need veterans, and that costs more. That's where it starts to hurt, where you want to pay all those vets. And then on the flip side, you pay the quarterback all that money, it's not smart to not have weapons."

Three teams have major calls to make this offseason about their quarterbacks:

Chicago Bears
The player: Cutler
The situation: The contract extension he signed after being traded to Chicago expires in February.
The landscape: GM Phil Emery has been largely mum, but this is clearly a franchise-altering situation. Cutler turns 31 in April, and his potential has outweighed his production as a Bear. Going with a quarterback of his age and experience would signal that Chicago is approaching team-building one way. Starting over with a younger player, on the other hand, could guide larger-scale changes with the other older players on the roster. The franchise tag could be an option.

Cincinnati Bengals
The player: Andy Dalton
The situation: The Bengals have a handful of young players to pay. Dalton is eligible to be extended for the first time this offseason, with 2014 being a contract year.
The landscape: Early in the season, there was internal doubt about Dalton being the long-term answer. That dissipated in October when Dalton showed improvement, but he's struggled since. "At the end of the day, the issue is consistency," a Bengals source said. Not insignificant: Getting Dalton done early would help Cincinnati manage its financials, with a handful of young players due to get deals soon.

San Francisco 49ers
The player: Colin Kaepernick
The situation: Like Dalton, Kaepernick was a second-round draft pick in 2011, meaning he's a) eligible for a new deal this offseason and b) will be going into a contract year.
The landscape: There was no surer sign of the Niners' commitment to Kaepernick than their decision to trade away Alex Smith in the offseason, a move that came after the precocious quarterback's epic playoff run. Since then, Kaepernick has struggled to evolve away from an option-heavy offense. The Niners' plan remains to negotiate with him this offseason, but his play has affected his market value to some degree, and that could make .

Forthcoming decisions on these quarterbacks will help shape what's next for each team. The Bears, sans Cutler, could be in for retooling. The Bengals, if Dalton is allowed to go into his contract year, could take a flier on another QB in the draft.

Of course, if those teams go the other way and lock up their quarterbacks, budgetary considerations will need to be made.

The Indianapolis Colts of Peyton Manning's prime are a good example. Part of the benefit of hiring Tony Dungy and playing the relatively simple Tampa 2 defense (Manning's first mega-contract came after Dungy's second year) was making it easier organizationally to find defensive players who could play right away. Indianapolis poured draft picks and money into Manning's offensive weaponry while constructing a defense built to play with leads around smaller, quicker and mostly cheaper players. The Colts wound up capturing a championship and posting at least 12 wins in seven straight seasons.

Because Manning ate up a large chunk of the cap, Indianapolis could only afford to pay a smaller core of players at the top of the market, so drafting and developing around that core was a point of emphasis.

"The first part of it is that you can't win in this league without a franchise quarterback that the team completely believes in," one NFC GM said. "The second part (of paying him) is you have to have a staff that's willing to play with younger players, and develop young players, and commit to being good teams. When you have that quarterback, the days of signing the vets to come in because they know what they're doing, unless they take less, don't exist anymore."

Baltimore got younger in key spots this offseason, as did Atlanta, while Green Bay has always been draft-centric, so the difference isn't as stark there. In all three locales, big paydays for franchise quarterbacks coincided with the departures of veterans, and likely will force tough decisions down the road, as well.

Pulling the trigger on such a deal in the first place isn't easy. In so many ways, the entire building hitches itself to that player as a result. Taking into account the fallout in other areas of the roster, figuring out where to draw the line can often come down to how confident management is that the quarterback is capable of both winning and carrying the team.

"I just think, with a guy you're around every day, at practice, in the meeting rooms, in the offseason, you know," the AFC GM said. "You know if that has a chance, even if he hasn't made it there yet. So it comes down to your own evaluation. And then it becomes, 'As opposed to what?' If he's not there, you can always draft a guy, but that's easier said than done."

So on one hand, you sell out for the player. On the other, you risk winding up with a guy who makes you the equivalent of a perennial 50-win team in the NBA: just good enough to make you believe you're close while perhaps preventing you from making some of the more seismic changes needed to reach the ultimate goal.

"The way I see it, the guy's gotta be able to bring people along with him, carry guys and make them better," the NFC GM said. "He's gonna be the guy who's playing with that rookie receiver or the undrafted tight end. He knows that, making that money, he can't bitch about not having players. And you look for him to have strong, strong leadership skills."

Soon enough, we'll find out if the Bears, Bengals and Niners feel like their teams have that intangible quality. And as they know, it's one decision they have to get right.

O.city · 11-17-2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I think much of what Flacco accomplished in his. SB run was due in large part to Anquan Boldin.

At the same time, I think there's only a handful of QBs that could give those opportunities to Boldin.

I am of the opinion that Flacco is overpaid.

He's not a guy that raises the level of play.
He's a guy that needs weapons, who plays to their level.

I agree.

I think he's a guy that when he gets hot can be really good, but I think he's too much of a product of what's around him for me to pay him that much.

**BossChief** · 11-17-2013, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

Paying them that means you probably lose Houston and or Poe etc.

I don't think those two are good enough for that to happen.

When they haven't had great situations around them, they haven't been a whole lot more than a mistake prone qb.

No way.

It means you let your aging players walk and replace THEM with draft picks.

What you guys are suggesting is that you sell your horse (or let someone less have it for free) so that you can upgrade your cart because you can pull it with a donkey.

O.city · 11-17-2013, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

No way.

It means you let your aging players walk and replace THEM with draft picks.

What you guys are suggesting is that you sell your horse (or let someone less have it for free) so that you can upgrade your cart because you can pull it with a donkey.

5 years a go, I might agree.

If you pay said borderline qb that much you essentially have to hit draft pick after pick with potential eliteish level players.

That's a lot to ask.

**BossChief** · 11-17-2013, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I think much of what Flacco accomplished in his. SB run was due in large part to Anquan Boldin.

At the same time, I think there's only a handful of QBs that could give those opportunities to Boldin.

I am of the opinion that Flacco is overpaid.

He's not a guy that raises the level of play.
He's a guy that needs weapons, who plays to their level.

Anquan Boldin is a "b" receiver, as was every other skill position player from that offense.

While I wouldn't ever argue that Flacco is at the same level as the elite guys, he proved he could be a superbowl MVP with "b talent" around him on offense.

Right now, Alex Smuth is surrounded by "b level talent" and isn't doing anything confidence inspiring and is getting 11+ million this year.

O.city · 11-17-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

Anquan Boldin is a "b" receiver, as was every other skill position player from that offense.

While I wouldn't ever argue that Flacco is at the same level as the elite guys, he proved he could be a superbowl MVP with "b talent" around him on offense.

Right now, Alex Smuth is surrounded by "b level talent" and isn't doing anything confidence inspiring and is getting 11+ million this year.

This has nothing to do with Alex smith. We aren't talking about him.

And Boldin is a b wr now, but didn't play like it int he playoffs.

Flacco got hot at the right time. Is that potential worth making him the 2 highest paid qb in the league? Time will tell.

Brock · 11-17-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

Anquan Boldin is a "b" receiver, as was every other skill position player from that offense.

While I wouldn't ever argue that Flacco is at the same level as the elite guys, he proved he could be a superbowl MVP with "b talent" around him on offense.

Right now, Alex Smuth is surrounded by "b level talent" and isn't doing anything confidence inspiring and is getting 11+ million this year.

Shit. Give me Boldin and Torrey Smith any day. B level my eye.

**BossChief** · 11-17-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

Shit. Give me Boldin and Torrey Smith any day. B level my eye.

They sure as **** aren't AJ Green or CJ quality players, thus they are in the next tier.

I think Bowe is just as good or better than either of them...if given a similar QB situation.

O.city · 11-17-2013, 12:16 PM

It's just an interesting talking point about team building.

Like someone else brought up, if Alex smith had a flacco type run this year and we win a sb, would you give him 20mil$?

I sure wouldn't.

milkman · 11-17-2013, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

Anquan Boldin is a "b" receiver, as was every other skill position player from that offense.

While I wouldn't ever argue that Flacco is at the same level as the elite guys, he proved he could be a superbowl MVP with "b talent" around him on offense.

Right now, Alex Smuth is surrounded by "b level talent" and isn't doing anything confidence inspiring and is getting 11+ million this year.

What Boldin showed is that if you put the ball in his area code, he can make plays.

Flacco used that to his advantage, and without Boldin, he would likely be getting paid a shit ton less.

Personally, there's no way in hell I'd have given him that money, and I think he's well on his way to proving it was a bad investment.

O.city · 11-17-2013, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

They sure as **** aren't AJ Green or CJ quality players, thus they are in the next tier.

I think Bowe is just as good or better than either of them...if given a similar QB situation.

I think Bowe is better, but Torrey is pretty well fit for that offense.

Flacco is a scattershot in terms of accuracy, but can hit more deep balls. So get a big speed wr to go get it, Torrey smith.

**BossChief** · 11-17-2013, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

This has nothing to do with Alex smith. We aren't talking about him.

And Boldin is a b wr now, but didn't play like it int he playoffs.

Flacco got hot at the right time. Is that potential worth making him the 2 highest paid qb in the league? Time will tell.

Actually, that's exactly what this article is discussing. The merits of winning with "overpaid b level guys" or going to battle with guys like Alex Smith that won't offer you as much, but are cheaper.

milkman · 11-17-2013, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

They sure as **** aren't AJ Green or CJ quality players, thus they are in the next tier.

I think Bowe is just as good or better than either of them...if given a similar QB situation.

I agree.

But, as I see it, we are looking at levels.

Rodgers, Brady and Manning are here.

Eli is here

Flacco is here

And Smith is here.

That level just above Smith is not worth the price paid, and Smith isn't worth 11 mil.

O.city · 11-17-2013, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

Actually, that's exactly what this article is discussing. The merits of winning with "overpaid b level guys" or going to battle with guys like Alex Smith that won't offer you as much, but are cheaper.

Good point, my fault.

Bit that brings in a good point. If you put enough premier talent around a guy like smith, which guys like his salary allow you to do, will he gap between those guys and the flaccos be that great?

I dunno, but it's interesting.

O.city · 11-17-2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I agree.

But, as I see it, we are looking at levels.

Rodgers, Brady and Manning are here.

Eli is here

Flacco is here

And Smith is here.

That level just above Smith is not worth the price paid, and Smith isn't worth 11 mil.

I don't know that I put Eli that high right now though. But I agree on everything else.

milkman · 11-17-2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

I don't know that I put Eli that high right now though. But I agree on everything else.

The thing about Eli is that he has shown that he can put a team on his shoulders, and has come up big in the clutch more consistently than any other QB.

I can't put him on the same level as the elite guys, but I also won't dismiss his history and drop him to a level equal to Flacco.

11-16-2013, 03:24 PM
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $2864064	Albert Breer article on paying qbs. DJ, myself a few others had a conversation about this the other day, now Breer talking about it. He must read CP. Anyway, discuss Albert Breer. It isn't far-fetched to think Jay Cutler's departure from last Sunday's game against Detroit could lead to a larger-scale exodus from Chicago for the mercurial quarterback. As it stands, he's had eight starts for new coach Marc Trestman, and a high ankle sprain has landed him in a walking boot. The coach said that Cutler is still the Bears' quarterback. For how much longer is the question. Chicago isn't alone here. The salary cap has stayed relatively flat the past three years, and while the middle class has been squeezed and the league has gotten younger across the board, the price tag on quarterbacks has continued to rise. That has turned up the pressure on teams to get it right at the game's most important position. The decision of whether or not to double down on a passer, which has always been a high-stakes game, is now marked by the economic reality of one player eating up an average of $20 million per year while the cap hovers just above $120 million. "Any player you sign, no matter how much it's for, you wanna be right. But for that much money, you really have to be," an AFC general manager said. "Say you run a 3-4. Well, now, that's harder, because you need more blue-chippers -- a lockdown corner, pass-rushers. A lot of 3-4s are complicated, so you might need veterans, and that costs more. That's where it starts to hurt, where you want to pay all those vets. And then on the flip side, you pay the quarterback all that money, it's not smart to not have weapons." Three teams have major calls to make this offseason about their quarterbacks: Chicago Bears The player: Cutler The situation: The contract extension he signed after being traded to Chicago expires in February. The landscape: GM Phil Emery has been largely mum, but this is clearly a franchise-altering situation. Cutler turns 31 in April, and his potential has outweighed his production as a Bear. Going with a quarterback of his age and experience would signal that Chicago is approaching team-building one way. Starting over with a younger player, on the other hand, could guide larger-scale changes with the other older players on the roster. The franchise tag could be an option. Cincinnati Bengals The player: Andy Dalton The situation: The Bengals have a handful of young players to pay. Dalton is eligible to be extended for the first time this offseason, with 2014 being a contract year. The landscape: Early in the season, there was internal doubt about Dalton being the long-term answer. That dissipated in October when Dalton showed improvement, but he's struggled since. "At the end of the day, the issue is consistency," a Bengals source said. Not insignificant: Getting Dalton done early would help Cincinnati manage its financials, with a handful of young players due to get deals soon. San Francisco 49ers The player: Colin Kaepernick The situation: Like Dalton, Kaepernick was a second-round draft pick in 2011, meaning he's a) eligible for a new deal this offseason and b) will be going into a contract year. The landscape: There was no surer sign of the Niners' commitment to Kaepernick than their decision to trade away Alex Smith in the offseason, a move that came after the precocious quarterback's epic playoff run. Since then, Kaepernick has struggled to evolve away from an option-heavy offense. The Niners' plan remains to negotiate with him this offseason, but his play has affected his market value to some degree, and that could make . Forthcoming decisions on these quarterbacks will help shape what's next for each team. The Bears, sans Cutler, could be in for retooling. The Bengals, if Dalton is allowed to go into his contract year, could take a flier on another QB in the draft. Of course, if those teams go the other way and lock up their quarterbacks, budgetary considerations will need to be made. The Indianapolis Colts of Peyton Manning's prime are a good example. Part of the benefit of hiring Tony Dungy and playing the relatively simple Tampa 2 defense (Manning's first mega-contract came after Dungy's second year) was making it easier organizationally to find defensive players who could play right away. Indianapolis poured draft picks and money into Manning's offensive weaponry while constructing a defense built to play with leads around smaller, quicker and mostly cheaper players. The Colts wound up capturing a championship and posting at least 12 wins in seven straight seasons. Because Manning ate up a large chunk of the cap, Indianapolis could only afford to pay a smaller core of players at the top of the market, so drafting and developing around that core was a point of emphasis. "The first part of it is that you can't win in this league without a franchise quarterback that the team completely believes in," one NFC GM said. "The second part (of paying him) is you have to have a staff that's willing to play with younger players, and develop young players, and commit to being good teams. When you have that quarterback, the days of signing the vets to come in because they know what they're doing, unless they take less, don't exist anymore." Baltimore got younger in key spots this offseason, as did Atlanta, while Green Bay has always been draft-centric, so the difference isn't as stark there. In all three locales, big paydays for franchise quarterbacks coincided with the departures of veterans, and likely will force tough decisions down the road, as well. Pulling the trigger on such a deal in the first place isn't easy. In so many ways, the entire building hitches itself to that player as a result. Taking into account the fallout in other areas of the roster, figuring out where to draw the line can often come down to how confident management is that the quarterback is capable of both winning and carrying the team. "I just think, with a guy you're around every day, at practice, in the meeting rooms, in the offseason, you know," the AFC GM said. "You know if that has a chance, even if he hasn't made it there yet. So it comes down to your own evaluation. And then it becomes, 'As opposed to what?' If he's not there, you can always draft a guy, but that's easier said than done." So on one hand, you sell out for the player. On the other, you risk winding up with a guy who makes you the equivalent of a perennial 50-win team in the NBA: just good enough to make you believe you're close while perhaps preventing you from making some of the more seismic changes needed to reach the ultimate goal. "The way I see it, the guy's gotta be able to bring people along with him, carry guys and make them better," the NFC GM said. "He's gonna be the guy who's playing with that rookie receiver or the undrafted tight end. He knows that, making that money, he can't bitch about not having players. And you look for him to have strong, strong leadership skills." Soon enough, we'll find out if the Bears, Bengals and Niners feel like their teams have that intangible quality. And as they know, it's one decision they have to get right.
Posts: 81,149

11-17-2013, 12:16 PM	#38
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $2864064	It's just an interesting talking point about team building. Like someone else brought up, if Alex smith had a flacco type run this year and we win a sb, would you give him 20mil$? I sure wouldn't.
Posts: 81,149

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