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Old 08-04-2015, 06:10 PM  
Eleazar Eleazar is offline
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Seattle's $15 minimum wage redux

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Seattle became the first city in the nation to implement the $15 per hour minimum wage this past spring. Fox News reports that one unintended effect is that workers who are earning the higher wage are asking for fewer hours, so they can remain eligible for low income government benefits like childcare and tax credits.

Full Life Care, a home nursing nonprofit, told KIRO-TV in Seattle that several workers want to work less.

Local radio talk show host Jason Rantz on KIRO-FM noted the irony: “If [employees] cut down their hours to stay on those subsidies because the $15 per hour minimum wage didn’t actually help get them out of poverty, all you’ve done is put a burden on the business and given false hope to a lot of people.”

“Despite a booming economy throughout western Washington, the state’s welfare caseload has dropped very little since the higher wage phase began in Seattle in April. In March 130,851 people were enrolled in the Basic Food program. In April, the caseload dropped to 130,376,” according to Fox News.

...

“Some restaurants have tacked on a 15 percent surcharge to cover the higher wages. And some managers are no longer encouraging customers to tip, leading to a redistribution of income. Workers in the back of the kitchen, such as dishwashers and cooks, are getting paid more, but servers who rely on tips are seeing a pay cut,” Fox News reported.

...

Earlier this year, as the implementation of the minimum wage law loomed, Seattle Magazine noted that something appeared to be afoot affecting the restaurant industry in the city, asking: “Why Are So Many Seattle Restaurants Closing Lately? “Seattle foodies [are] downcast,” the magazine reported

...

The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.” Anthony Anton, president and CEO of the Washington Restaurant Association, told the magazine: “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.” He estimates that restaurants usually have a budget breakdown of about 36 percent for labor, 30 percent for food costs, and 30 percent to cover other operational costs. That leaves 4 percent for a profit margin. When labor costs shoot up to, say 42 percent, something has to give.

Shah Burnham is just one Seattle restaurant owner who believes that keeping her doors open is no longer worth it. She owns a popular Z Pizza restaurant location and says that even though her one store only has 12 employees, she’s considered part of the Z Pizza franchise — a large business. So she has to give raises within the next two years. “Small businesses in the city have up to six more years to phase in the new $15 an hour minimum wage,” according to Seattle’s Fox News 13.

“I know that I would have stayed here if I had 7 years, just like everyone else, if I had an even playing field,” she says. “The discrimination I’m feeling right now against my small business makes me not want to stay and do anything in Seattle.”

...

The Heritage Foundation notes the minimum wage is usually for new workers, with a low percentage of Americans receiving it. The organization also points out some other interesting statistics:

Over half of minimum-wage earners are between the ages of 16 and 24.
Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers earn raises within a year—without the government’s help.
Only 2.9 percent of wage earners earn the federal minimum wage.
Most minimum-wage earners are teenagers or young adults, not heads of families.
Two-thirds work part time (defined as less than 35 hours a week).
Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers live in families with incomes above 150 percent of the poverty line.
Just 4 percent of minimum-wage workers are single parents working full time, compared to 5.6 percent of all U.S. workers.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/sea...ent=2015-08-04
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:25 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Good God, no that is not a better goalpost. The number of workers earning minimum wage on welfare could drop to zero. It's still a failure if so many people get laid off that the overall number of people on welfare triples, though.

This is a plan to reduce the government assistance roles. Why would the barometer for success be anything other than 'did the number of people receiving assistance decrease'?
I suppose if this were happening in a static environment, you might be able to do that. But is the population of Seattle constant?
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:25 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Good God, no. The number of workers earning minimum wage on welfare could drop to zero. It's still a failure if so many people get laid off that the overall number of people on welfare triples, though.

This is a plan to reduce the government assistance roles. Why would the barometer for success be anything other than 'did the number of people receiving assistance decrease'?
Here is a study that covers what would happen with government assistance:

Quote:
-About half of all workers in the bottom 20 percent of wage earners (roughly anyone earning less than $10.10) receive public assistance in the form of Medicaid and the six primary means-tested income-support programs, either directly or through a family member. These programs include the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC); the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), also known as food stamps; the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP); the Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC); the Section 8 Housing Choice Voucher program; and the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program (TANF) or equivalent state and/or local cash assistance programs.

-Workers in the bottom 20 percent of wage earners receive over $45 billion in government assistance each year from the six primary means-tested income-support programs.2

-Roughly half of all public assistance dollars from means-tested income-support programs that go to working individuals go to workers with wages below $10.10.

-If the minimum wage were raised to $10.10, more than 1.7 million American workers would no longer rely on public assistance programs.

-Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 would reduce government expenditures on current income-support programs by $7.6 billion per year—and possibly more, given the conservative nature of this estimate. This would allow these funds to be repurposed into either new programs or expansions of existing programs to further leverage the poverty-fighting impact of this spending.3
Safety net programs would save 24 cents for every additional dollar in wages paid to workers affected by a minimum-wage increase to $10.10.
http://www.epi.org/publication/safet...-minimum-wage/
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:27 PM   #153
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Loneiguana - do you believe a 40 hour a week job, at minimum wage, should pay enough for a single mother of two with no child support to stay off any government assistance?

And that if an employer cannot pay that then their business is not sustainable.

He won't answer.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:27 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I suppose if this were happening in a static environment, you might be able to do that. But is the population of Seattle constant?
No. I used a percentage in my original question. I didn't feel the need to type it out every time thereafter.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:29 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaise View Post
Loneiguana - do you believe a 40 hour a week job, at minimum wage, should pay enough for a single mother of two with no child support to stay off any government assistance?

And that if an employer cannot pay that then their business is not sustainable.

He won't answer.
Yes, a company that cannot pay a living wage and survive is not sustainable and will require government assistance either to the employee or the company.

How can you lie about me not answering when you attempt to summarize my answer?
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:29 PM   #156
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http://rightwingnews.com/top-news/re...happened-next/

Gravity Payments has already debunked about 80% of the theories presented on this thread.
The company is on the verge of going under just a few months after hiking wages to $70K.

Forbes, the NY Times and WSJ have articles on this as well.

Look up Equity Theory of Motivation. Pretty interesting.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:31 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Yes, a company that cannot pay a living wage and survive is not sustainable and will require government assistance either to the employee or the company.

How can you lie about me not answering when you attempt to summarize my answer?
How am I lying? Is it not your stance that minimum wage should pay enough for a single mother of two to stay off assistance? On 40 hours a week, with no child support?

Where's my lie?
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:33 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post
http://rightwingnews.com/top-news/re...happened-next/

Gravity Payments has already debunked about 80% of the theories presented on this thread.
The company is on the verge of going under just a few months after hiking wages to $70K.

Forbes, the NY Times and WSJ have articles on this as well.

Look up Equity Theory of Motivation. Pretty interesting.
Yes. They are on the verge of going under because of an HR disaster. That has nothing to do with this discussion, although I look forward to reading all about it later on rightwingnews.com.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:36 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
How am I lying? Is it not your stance that minimum wage should pay enough for a single mother of two to stay off assistance? On 40 hours a week, with no child support?

Where's my lie?
Your lies have been everything else you been including into that little assessment.

example: "pay all her bills"
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:40 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Yes. They are on the verge of going under because of an HR disaster. That has nothing to do with this discussion, although I look forward to reading all about it later on rightwingnews.com.
In other words you didn't read any of it. Gotcha.

Yes part of the issue is HR part of it is losing customers and strangely enough losing employees. Good employees.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:40 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
How am I lying? Is it not your stance that minimum wage should pay enough for a single mother of two to stay off assistance? On 40 hours a week, with no child support?

Where's my lie?
You've completely lost me.

His position seems clear to me. Minimum wage should be enough for a person working 40 hours a week supporting 2 kids alone to live above the poverty level. 'Pay all her bills' is a nonsensical way to phrase it.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:42 PM   #162
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In other words you didn't read any of it. Gotcha.

Yes part of the issue is HR part of it is losing customers and strangely enough losing employees. Good employees.
That's correct. I didn't read any of it because it has nothing to do with this topic. If I decide to educate myself further on their HR disaster caused by telling everyone how much their co-workers are paid, rest assured that I will turn to rightwingnews.com to get the full story.
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:02 PM   #163
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That's why I want to set the goalposts in cement today. Define success now so that we can look at the results objectively in a year and see if the move was a net positive or a net negative.
Ok. I took a stab at it. So how would you define success and failure?

Do you consider Obama's stimulus a success or failure? How about GWB's bailout? What criteria do you use?
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:02 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
You've completely lost me.

His position seems clear to me. Minimum wage should be enough for a person working 40 hours a week supporting 2 kids alone to live above the poverty level. 'Pay all her bills' is a nonsensical way to phrase it.
I admit that I don't know if people above or at the poverty level are eligible for benefits, but his standard in other threads was that the single parent of two not receive support payments from the government. That if they were it demonstarted the wage was too low
If $15 hour minimum wage cuts off welfare payments to a single mother of two, then hooray.
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:02 PM   #165
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But again, $30/hr is well within the parameters of our national income stats so would it be "absurd"? You might be right it would be unworkable but absurd it is not.


Consider this: you could double the net worth for the bottom 40% of Americans by simply taking the Walton Family fortune and redistributing it. Now I'm sure they would dislike it but wouldn't the other 77 million benefactors find that "workable"? Of course. Yet as simple and pain-free as that would be, we don't do it. Just as we don't double wages on biz owners just because it sounds good.


I don't have a min wage figure in mind nor do I oppose govt assistance programs. Pretty bold of you to call me "extreme" esp on this topic.
$500/hr is well within the parameters of our national income stats. But again, that's irrelevant when talking about MINIMUM wage. Minimum. All you're doing is making ridiculous unfeasible examples at the other end of the spectrum which is not at all what anybody is talking about.

Your consideration is equally irrelevant and dumb.
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