Vermeil on Surtain trade; "IT MAY BE OUT THE WINDOW" - Page 4

Bootlegged · 04-18-2005, 08:49 AM

Cornerback corners Chiefs

By ADAM TEICHER

The Kansas City Star

In a perfect world, the Chiefs would have their cornerback by now. They would have signed Samari Rolle, traded for Patrick Surtain or otherwise landed a veteran corner.

Then the Chiefs would be free to concentrate on this weekend's draft in that context.

But Rolle signed instead with Baltimore, Surtain is still property of the Miami Dolphins, and the Chiefs are still without a burning defensive need.

As the minutes tick off the clock without the Chiefs and Dolphins completing a trade involving Surtain, the closer the Chiefs get to having to deal with their cornerback issue in the draft. Maybe they use their first-round pick on a corner like Auburn's Carlos Rogers or perhaps their second-rounder on a player like Virginia Tech's Eric Green.

Their draft could go many ways. It all hinges on whether they pull off the trade for Surtain.

“It may be out the window,” coach Dick Vermeil said of the trade. “There's not much talk about it right now. We're just preparing to draft the best football players we can draft. We're doing it without consideration for what else may happen.”Free-agency began early last month with the Chiefs holding big plans for improving at cornerback. Rolle, who played for Chiefs defensive coordinator Gunther Cunningham for three seasons in Tennessee, was among the first group of free-agent visitors.

If he fell through, the Chiefs wanted to meet with Ken Lucas and Fred Smoot. They had talked to the Dolphins about Surtain and were planning to meet with Ty Law.

The Chiefs started contract negotiations with Rolle and then backed off after learning of a spinal condition found during a routine physical exam. Lucas and Smoot signed with other teams before the Chiefs could bring them to Kansas City for a visit.

They met with Law, but his fractured foot was still mending, and with Kelly Herndon, but he signed with Seattle. The Chiefs appear to be getting nowhere in their trade talks with Miami.

So their cornerback search is more or less where it started. But the Chiefs are still determined to obtain a starter to pair with Eric Warfield. Dexter McCleon, for now at least, will be the nickel back.

“When we brought Dexter McCleon here, we really wanted him to be our nickel back and play inside because he's such a smart player,” Vermeil said. “That's what we'd like to do with him. We've got Eric Warfield. We've also got William Bartee and Julian Battle. So we already have good depth. But if we can add a high-quality player to that, either a free agent or a first-round pick, it's going to help.”

The Chiefs are almost certain to draft a cornerback in the first couple of rounds if they don't reach an agreement with the Dolphins on Surtain. If they do make the trade, it's much less of a sure thing.

If they get Surtain and then a cornerback on the first day of the draft, suddenly a weakness become a strength. Surtain would join Warfield in the starting lineup, McCleon is the nickel back, the rookie is the fourth corner, and either Bartee or Battle, or possibly both, is out of a job.

“If we sign a corner, that may not necessarily stop us from drafting a great corner if he's sitting there,” Vermeil said. “And we don't know who's going to be sitting there. I can't see why we'd alter the way we rank players and grade players based on having signed a free-agent corner. We've got to go about our business.”

The trouble with trading for Surtain is that he will cost the Chiefs a draft pick. The Dolphins are asking for a second-round selection.

If the Chiefs meet that price — which they've indicated they won't — they won't pick between the middle of the first round and the end of the third. That's a long time to wait for a team that has other positions it would like to address.

Foremost among them are linebacker, where the Chiefs have a severe shortage of healthy bodies, and wide receiver, where starters Eddie Kennison and Johnnie Morton are over 30.

Because of their inability to acquire a cornerback by now, the Chiefs might not be able to satisfy every position on their wish list in this draft.

Brock · 04-18-2005, 10:09 AM

I don't understand why anyone thinks any NFL coach or GM is going to speak the truth at this time of year. How can you tell they're lying? Their lips are moving.

htismaqe · 04-18-2005, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

If this trade is out the window, then I hope Carl and Dick jump out right behind it.

I wholeheartedly agree.

ROYC75 · 04-18-2005, 10:13 AM

I sence a smoke screen, but that's just me.

**CosmicPal** · 04-18-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rufusmaqe

1) This is not a smokescreen.

2) This does not mean the Surtain deal is dead.

I totally agree. The Chiefs staff are doing what they are supposed to be doing right now: Preparing for the draft. All of their time should be commited to fielding the best draft possible. Once they are comfortable with their field, they can then start up the negotiations with Miami as the draft nears. Everyone in the NFL knows KC and Miami are working a deal. Miami is wanting to trade down in the draft with Minnesota, and if they do just that- KC will not have to give up this year's 2nd rounder, and instead give up a 4th rounder as originally desired.

Even if they didn't get Surtain- all is not lost. Law is still out there and they have plenty of draft picks to get a few DB's out of it....

brent102fire · 04-18-2005, 10:27 AM

“When we brought Dexter McCleon here, we really wanted him to be our nickel back and play inside because he's such a smart player,” Vermeil said. “That's what we'd like to do with him. We've got Eric Warfield. We've also got William Bartee and Julian Battle. So we already have good depth. But if we can add a high-quality player to that, either a free agent or a first-round pick, it's going to help.”

DV has lost his mind...Bartee is good depth? That guy should not even be on the team anymore.

Sure-Oz · 04-18-2005, 10:32 AM

I'll wait until draft day to see.

TRR · 04-18-2005, 10:46 AM

I think both sides are playing hard to get right now. Look at the deal for Welbourn last draft. Nobody even knew KC was interested. Look at the Green trade where everybody thought the deal was dead, and then boom.

We have a lot more options than Miami does. We can trade for Surtain, sign Ty Law, or draft a pretty good CB prospect with the #15 pick. Miami can either eat his salary and surely lose him after this season, or trade him and get decent value.

TEX · 04-18-2005, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRR

I think both sides are playing hard to get right now. Look at the deal for Welbourn last draft. Nobody even knew KC was interested. Look at the Green trade where everybody thought the deal was dead, and then boom.

We have a lot more options than Miami does. We can trade for Surtain, sign Ty Law, or draft a pretty good CB prospect with the #15 pick. Miami can either eat his salary and surely lose him after this season, or trade him and get decent value.

Yep, but our options are running out via free agency. I suspect that some other team, like the Jets, might swoop in and acquire Surtain. We'll see. IMO, Law is NOT an option.

Mark M · 04-18-2005, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX

... He might be taught to play man-on-man better ...

And monkeys may fly out of my ass.

Apparently, you're not familiar with KC's secondary coach, Peter "I-give-great-blowjobs-so-I-still-have-a-job" Giunta.

He may be able to learn it, but it sure as hell ain't gonna happen in KC.

MM
~~

irishjayhawk · 04-18-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brent102fire

“When we brought Dexter McCleon here, we really wanted him to be our nickel back and play inside because he's such a smart player,” Vermeil said. “That's what we'd like to do with him. We've got Eric Warfield. We've also got William Bartee and Julian Battle. So we already have good depth. But if we can add a high-quality player to that, either a free agent or a first-round pick, it's going to help.”

DV has lost his mind...Bartee is good depth? That guy should not even be on the team anymore.

Thats exactly what i thought. I thought someone would have mentioned it WAY before now.

I am pretty pessimistic about this trade. Like it was said above, please, if its out the window, jump behind it.

Ralphy Boy · 04-18-2005, 12:00 PM

I seem to recall getting laughed off the board a couple of months ago for saying we should trade a couple of our later round picks for Samari Rolle & Kevin Carter when everyone else said "why give up a pick for them when you can get them as free agents". My answer then was the same as now, because you'd have gotten them for sure without having to compete for their services and wouldn't have had to pay a high signing bonus to get them, nor would you have had to waste a high pick to get them.

Everyone knew they were going to be released for more than a month prior to it happening and nobody did anything, so we aren't alone, every other team could have done the same thing. However what almost every one of those teams did do was step up to the plate and pay the FA money to get a player.

Either way here we are right before the draft still without a corner hoping that we will give up our second round pick for a CB whose not as good as a guy we quite possibly could have had for a 5th rounder.

Don't think they would have traded either of them for the 5th? They traded Carlos Hall for a "undisclosed pick", don't you think they would have rather gotten something, for better players, than the nothing they got? Hall didn't cost them squat against their cap and they still traded him away. Anyone care to argue that Hall is better than Carter?

Our front office conducts half of their business like a handyman working out of their truck and has no ability or apparent desire to forecast events with other teams or project our own needs and thats why we will be sitting on our asses come January 2006.

You can be a great handyman, but working from job to job or deal to deal isn't going to get you anywhere, other than "by". I was impressed with the Bell signing as well as the Knight pickup, but it's like unless someone calls CP and tells him "we want to trade xxx player, do you want to trade?" he just doesn't think about calling and feeling things out himself.

ChiefsCountry · 04-18-2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brent102fire

“When we brought Dexter McCleon here, we really wanted him to be our nickel back and play inside because he's such a smart player,” Vermeil said. “That's what we'd like to do with him. We've got Eric Warfield. We've also got William Bartee and Julian Battle. So we already have good depth. But if we can add a high-quality player to that, either a free agent or a first-round pick, it's going to help.”

DV has lost his mind...Bartee is good depth? That guy should not even be on the team anymore.

For Special teams and depth in an emergency yes, Bartee is good for that. Not starting, not being the nickel back, or the dime back. Special teams he is good for.

htismaqe · 04-18-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphy Boy

My answer then was the same as now, because you'd have gotten them for sure without having to compete for their services and wouldn't have had to pay a high signing bonus to get them, nor would you have had to waste a high pick to get them.

Sorry, but trading for them DOES NOT mean you won't have to give them a big signing bonus.

Negotiating compensation with a team does not equal negotiating compensation with a player.

That would be like saying the following:

If we give Miami a 2nd-round draft pick, we will give Surtain a $15M signing bonus but if we give them a 4th-rounder, we'll only give him $7.5M because he was only worth half as much to the Dolphins.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

Ralphy Boy · 04-18-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rufusmaqe

Sorry, but trading for them DOES NOT mean you won't have to give them a big signing bonus.

Negotiating compensation with a team does not equal negotiating compensation with a player.

That would be like saying the following:

If we give Miami a 2nd-round draft pick, we will give Surtain a $15M signing bonus but if we give them a 4th-rounder, we'll only give him $7.5M because he was only worth half as much to the Dolphins.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

That is exactly what it means, you don't HAVE to give them a new contract. He could play one year on a high salary and if all you've given up is a 5th, and the guy helped get you to a Superbowl, then it's money well spent even if he's gone the next year.

Granted for cap reasons you'd probably want to pay him a signing bonus, but given Lamar's recent reluctancy to give a big bonus, it could be avoided.

htismaqe · 04-18-2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralphy Boy

That is exactly what it means, you don't HAVE to give them a new contract. He could play one year on a high salary and if all you've given up is a 5th, and the guy helped get you to a Superbowl, then it's money well spent even if he's gone the next year.

Granted for cap reasons you'd probably want to pay him a signing bonus, but given Lamar's recent reluctancy to give a big bonus, it could be avoided.

You're going to trade for a guy that's going to get cut and then NOT give him a new contract?

Have fun watching him sit out.

That's absolutely moronic, dude.

04-18-2005, 08:49 AM
Bootlegged One4Mahomes Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: f Casino cash: $9985545	Vermeil on Surtain trade; "IT MAY BE OUT THE WINDOW" Cornerback corners Chiefs By ADAM TEICHER The Kansas City Star In a perfect world, the Chiefs would have their cornerback by now. They would have signed Samari Rolle, traded for Patrick Surtain or otherwise landed a veteran corner. Then the Chiefs would be free to concentrate on this weekend's draft in that context. But Rolle signed instead with Baltimore, Surtain is still property of the Miami Dolphins, and the Chiefs are still without a burning defensive need. As the minutes tick off the clock without the Chiefs and Dolphins completing a trade involving Surtain, the closer the Chiefs get to having to deal with their cornerback issue in the draft. Maybe they use their first-round pick on a corner like Auburn's Carlos Rogers or perhaps their second-rounder on a player like Virginia Tech's Eric Green. Their draft could go many ways. It all hinges on whether they pull off the trade for Surtain. “It may be out the window,” coach Dick Vermeil said of the trade. “There's not much talk about it right now. We're just preparing to draft the best football players we can draft. We're doing it without consideration for what else may happen.”Free-agency began early last month with the Chiefs holding big plans for improving at cornerback. Rolle, who played for Chiefs defensive coordinator Gunther Cunningham for three seasons in Tennessee, was among the first group of free-agent visitors. If he fell through, the Chiefs wanted to meet with Ken Lucas and Fred Smoot. They had talked to the Dolphins about Surtain and were planning to meet with Ty Law. The Chiefs started contract negotiations with Rolle and then backed off after learning of a spinal condition found during a routine physical exam. Lucas and Smoot signed with other teams before the Chiefs could bring them to Kansas City for a visit. They met with Law, but his fractured foot was still mending, and with Kelly Herndon, but he signed with Seattle. The Chiefs appear to be getting nowhere in their trade talks with Miami. So their cornerback search is more or less where it started. But the Chiefs are still determined to obtain a starter to pair with Eric Warfield. Dexter McCleon, for now at least, will be the nickel back. “When we brought Dexter McCleon here, we really wanted him to be our nickel back and play inside because he's such a smart player,” Vermeil said. “That's what we'd like to do with him. We've got Eric Warfield. We've also got William Bartee and Julian Battle. So we already have good depth. But if we can add a high-quality player to that, either a free agent or a first-round pick, it's going to help.” The Chiefs are almost certain to draft a cornerback in the first couple of rounds if they don't reach an agreement with the Dolphins on Surtain. If they do make the trade, it's much less of a sure thing. If they get Surtain and then a cornerback on the first day of the draft, suddenly a weakness become a strength. Surtain would join Warfield in the starting lineup, McCleon is the nickel back, the rookie is the fourth corner, and either Bartee or Battle, or possibly both, is out of a job. “If we sign a corner, that may not necessarily stop us from drafting a great corner if he's sitting there,” Vermeil said. “And we don't know who's going to be sitting there. I can't see why we'd alter the way we rank players and grade players based on having signed a free-agent corner. We've got to go about our business.” The trouble with trading for Surtain is that he will cost the Chiefs a draft pick. The Dolphins are asking for a second-round selection. If the Chiefs meet that price — which they've indicated they won't — they won't pick between the middle of the first round and the end of the third. That's a long time to wait for a team that has other positions it would like to address. Foremost among them are linebacker, where the Chiefs have a severe shortage of healthy bodies, and wide receiver, where starters Eddie Kennison and Johnnie Morton are over 30. Because of their inability to acquire a cornerback by now, the Chiefs might not be able to satisfy every position on their wish list in this draft.
Posts: 5,232

04-18-2005, 10:09 AM	#46
Brock Say hello to my little friend Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Larryville Casino cash: $9598422	I don't understand why anyone thinks any NFL coach or GM is going to speak the truth at this time of year. How can you tell they're lying? Their lips are moving.
Posts: 47,314

04-18-2005, 10:13 AM	#48
ROYC75 Time For Your Wake Up Call !!! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Barn Yard Casino cash: $5783900	I sence a smoke screen, but that's just me. __________________ Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it. John Lennon
Posts: 36,968

04-18-2005, 10:27 AM	#50
brent102fire Perfection Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ladera Ranch, CA Casino cash: $10004900	“When we brought Dexter McCleon here, we really wanted him to be our nickel back and play inside because he's such a smart player,” Vermeil said. “That's what we'd like to do with him. We've got Eric Warfield. We've also got William Bartee and Julian Battle. So we already have good depth. But if we can add a high-quality player to that, either a free agent or a first-round pick, it's going to help.” DV has lost his mind...Bartee is good depth? That guy should not even be on the team anymore. __________________ "Ladies and Gentlemen of the supposed jury, Charlie Sheen is innocent because Chewbacca is from Kishic."-Johnny Cochran
Posts: 3,905

04-18-2005, 10:46 AM	#52
TRR The Priest and I Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: CO Casino cash: $9870185	I think both sides are playing hard to get right now. Look at the deal for Welbourn last draft. Nobody even knew KC was interested. Look at the Green trade where everybody thought the deal was dead, and then boom. We have a lot more options than Miami does. We can trade for Surtain, sign Ty Law, or draft a pretty good CB prospect with the #15 pick. Miami can either eat his salary and surely lose him after this season, or trade him and get decent value.
Posts: 7,260

04-18-2005, 12:00 PM	#56
Ralphy Boy MVP Join Date: Aug 2001 Casino cash: $10004900	I seem to recall getting laughed off the board a couple of months ago for saying we should trade a couple of our later round picks for Samari Rolle & Kevin Carter when everyone else said "why give up a pick for them when you can get them as free agents". My answer then was the same as now, because you'd have gotten them for sure without having to compete for their services and wouldn't have had to pay a high signing bonus to get them, nor would you have had to waste a high pick to get them. Everyone knew they were going to be released for more than a month prior to it happening and nobody did anything, so we aren't alone, every other team could have done the same thing. However what almost every one of those teams did do was step up to the plate and pay the FA money to get a player. Either way here we are right before the draft still without a corner hoping that we will give up our second round pick for a CB whose not as good as a guy we quite possibly could have had for a 5th rounder. Don't think they would have traded either of them for the 5th? They traded Carlos Hall for a "undisclosed pick", don't you think they would have rather gotten something, for better players, than the nothing they got? Hall didn't cost them squat against their cap and they still traded him away. Anyone care to argue that Hall is better than Carter? Our front office conducts half of their business like a handyman working out of their truck and has no ability or apparent desire to forecast events with other teams or project our own needs and thats why we will be sitting on our asses come January 2006. You can be a great handyman, but working from job to job or deal to deal isn't going to get you anywhere, other than "by". I was impressed with the Bell signing as well as the Knight pickup, but it's like unless someone calls CP and tells him "we want to trade xxx player, do you want to trade?" he just doesn't think about calling and feeling things out himself.
Posts: 5,088

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