Chiefs The offensive line and Pioli's "track record". - Page 6

htismaqe · 05-08-2009, 10:41 AM

I keep seeing posts complaining about the lack of offensive linemen taken in the draft and comments like "The Patriots built up their OL and DL and won the Super Bowl".

Until now I hadn't done much research, but seemed to remember that their actual draft history with offensive linemen wasn't that great. So I did a little digging and here's what I found.

Let's start with the starting offensive lines (LT-RT) during Pioli's tenure:

2008 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur
2007 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur
2006 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur
2005 - Kaczur, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Ashworth
2004 - Light, Andruzzi, Koppen, Neal, Gorin
2003 - Light, Woody, Koppen, Andruzzi, Ashworth
2002 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Jones
2001 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Randall
2000 - Armstrong, Andruzzi, Woody, Isaia, Williams

And now their OL draft picks during Pioli's tenure:

2000 - Adrian Klemm, G, 2nd
2000 - Greg Randall, T, 4th
2001 - Matt Light, T, 2nd
2001 - Kenyatta Jones, T, 4th
2003 - Dan Koppen, C, 5th
2005 - Logan Mankins, G, 1st
2005 - Nick Kaczur, T, 3rd
2006 - Ryan O'Callaghan, T, 5th
2006 - Dan Stevenson, G, 6th
2007 - Clint Oldenburg, T, 5th
2007 - Corey Hilliard, T, 6th
2007 - Mike Elgin, G, 7th

The pick that makes it all happen was the pick of Matt Light in their 2nd draft. Adrian Klemm missed the entire 2001 season and ended up only starting 10 games his entire time in New England. Greg Randall started 4 games his rookie year and 16 his 2nd, but was replaced in 2002 by Kenyatta Jones, who only lasted 11 games and missed the entire 2003 season.

Their 2 to 3 best picks after Light (Mankins, Kaczur, and to a lesser extent Koppen) came into a line that was already established. Granted Damien Woody was a 1st-round draft pick in 1999 for the previous regime, but Andruzzi was a free agent 2000 as was Compton in 2001, who had already been in the league for almost a decade.

So what does this all mean? To me, it means we shouldn't be real surprised that Pioli didn't go balls-out on the offensive line this offseason. The Patriots real success in building their 2001 offensive line that won the first championship came in the 2001 offseason, not 2000. In fact, their 2000 draft only landed one player of significance - Tom Brady. The rest of the draft is pretty ho-hum.

**bevischief** · 05-10-2009, 06:00 PM

Just Passin' By · 05-10-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Q: Do you believe in the concept of drafting for need?

BB: As I said, I think you draft to improve your team. You sign players to improve your team. That encompasses a lot of things, so what you draft is what you see helping your team, both short term and long term, because you expect those players to be here for more than one year. Whether it is four or five years, whatever your commitment is to those players, that's really what you are drafting for. In the end, you need everyone. Whether you draft your number one need or number five need, in a year or two those needs may change. Sometimes you take a player that is best suited for you at the time and sometimes that player happens to be one you also need. You do what is best for your team.

So Pioli envisions Vrable and Thomas being here for 4-5 years?

I'm sorry, what round did Pioli draft Thomas in?

Mr. Krab · 05-10-2009, 06:09 PM

What some people have said for years, you don't have to have five 1st rounds on the offensive line. Coaching,scheme and stud skill position players are more important.

we have been overspending at the guard position for years, you should be able to use workmanlike type players in the interior of the offensive line. That allows you to save more to spend on QB,WR's and even OT's if you find a good one.

milkman · 05-10-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

I'm sorry, what round did Pioli draft Thomas in?

As I read that quote, he seemed to take a broader view than simply the draft, when he said "You sign players to improve your team. That encompasses a lot of things."

Just Passin' By · 05-10-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

As I read that quote, he seemed to take a broader view than simply the draft, when he said "You sign players to improve your team. That encompasses a lot of things."

Quote:

Whether it is four or five years, whatever your commitment is to those players, that's really what you are drafting for.

Clearly the drafting part is what the 4-5 years is about. It should come as no surprise that the team will also look to plug in older veterans for less time. It's been done since Belichick got there (Cox, Phifer, etc....).

htismaqe · 05-10-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Passin' By

That encompasses a lot of things, so what you draft is what you see helping your team, both short term and long term, because you expect those players to be here for more than one year.

This is what I've been talking about since the draft. Sure, there were plenty of guys available in the later rounds that might be immediate upgrades. But if they didn't have much upside, does the chance to upgrade in the short-term outweigh the fact that they don't fit long-term? Probably not.

Marcellus · 05-10-2009, 08:06 PM

I think it should be well known by now that the Pats have used free agency and the draft equally depending on the year to build their SB teams.

It really all depends on what is on the market as FA and what's in the draft year to year.

Why people think you can only draft to improve or sign big players in FA to improve is beyond me. It's a combination of what is out there at the time, salary cap considerations, and what your weak points are. Also how good or bad the team is as a whole going into off season.

It also depends on who you have that may lose due to FA. There is not a complete book on this. Both Dallas and San Fran in the 90's did either or year to year. NE has done both.

The Steelers are probably the only team that has used the draft almost exclusively to build their team.

Marcellus · 05-10-2009, 08:06 PM

I think it should be well known by now that the Pats have used free agency and the draft equally depending on the year to build their SB teams.

It really all depends on what is on the market as FA and what's in the draft year to year.

Why people think you can only draft to improve or sign big players in FA to improve is beyond me. It's a combination of what is out there at the time, salary cap considerations, and what your weak points are. Also how good or bad the team is as a whole going into off season.

It also depends on who you have that may lose due to FA. There is not a complete book on this. Both Dallas and San Fran in the 90's did either or year to year. NE has done both.

The Steelers are probably the only team that has used the draft almost exclusively to build their team.

Sweet Daddy Hate · 05-10-2009, 08:09 PM

Jesus Christ; was that the dullest take ever or what?

05-08-2009, 10:41 AM
htismaqe 'Tis my eye! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Chiefsplanet Casino cash: $10269900	The offensive line and Pioli's "track record". I keep seeing posts complaining about the lack of offensive linemen taken in the draft and comments like "The Patriots built up their OL and DL and won the Super Bowl". Until now I hadn't done much research, but seemed to remember that their actual draft history with offensive linemen wasn't that great. So I did a little digging and here's what I found. Let's start with the starting offensive lines (LT-RT) during Pioli's tenure: 2008 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur 2007 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur 2006 - Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur 2005 - Kaczur, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Ashworth 2004 - Light, Andruzzi, Koppen, Neal, Gorin 2003 - Light, Woody, Koppen, Andruzzi, Ashworth 2002 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Jones 2001 - Light, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Randall 2000 - Armstrong, Andruzzi, Woody, Isaia, Williams And now their OL draft picks during Pioli's tenure: 2000 - Adrian Klemm, G, 2nd 2000 - Greg Randall, T, 4th 2001 - Matt Light, T, 2nd 2001 - Kenyatta Jones, T, 4th 2003 - Dan Koppen, C, 5th 2005 - Logan Mankins, G, 1st 2005 - Nick Kaczur, T, 3rd 2006 - Ryan O'Callaghan, T, 5th 2006 - Dan Stevenson, G, 6th 2007 - Clint Oldenburg, T, 5th 2007 - Corey Hilliard, T, 6th 2007 - Mike Elgin, G, 7th The pick that makes it all happen was the pick of Matt Light in their 2nd draft. Adrian Klemm missed the entire 2001 season and ended up only starting 10 games his entire time in New England. Greg Randall started 4 games his rookie year and 16 his 2nd, but was replaced in 2002 by Kenyatta Jones, who only lasted 11 games and missed the entire 2003 season. Their 2 to 3 best picks after Light (Mankins, Kaczur, and to a lesser extent Koppen) came into a line that was already established. Granted Damien Woody was a 1st-round draft pick in 1999 for the previous regime, but Andruzzi was a free agent 2000 as was Compton in 2001, who had already been in the league for almost a decade. So what does this all mean? To me, it means we shouldn't be real surprised that Pioli didn't go balls-out on the offensive line this offseason. The Patriots real success in building their 2001 offensive line that won the first championship came in the 2001 offseason, not 2000. In fact, their 2000 draft only landed one player of significance - Tom Brady. The rest of the draft is pretty ho-hum.
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05-10-2009, 06:00 PM	#76
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05-10-2009, 06:09 PM	#78
Mr. Krab Big Red Nuts Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $10004900	What some people have said for years, you don't have to have five 1st rounds on the offensive line. Coaching,scheme and stud skill position players are more important. we have been overspending at the guard position for years, you should be able to use workmanlike type players in the interior of the offensive line. That allows you to save more to spend on QB,WR's and even OT's if you find a good one.
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05-10-2009, 08:06 PM	#82
Marcellus Diablo Negro Join Date: Sep 2003 Casino cash: $3132662	I think it should be well known by now that the Pats have used free agency and the draft equally depending on the year to build their SB teams. It really all depends on what is on the market as FA and what's in the draft year to year. Why people think you can only draft to improve or sign big players in FA to improve is beyond me. It's a combination of what is out there at the time, salary cap considerations, and what your weak points are. Also how good or bad the team is as a whole going into off season. It also depends on who you have that may lose due to FA. There is not a complete book on this. Both Dallas and San Fran in the 90's did either or year to year. NE has done both. The Steelers are probably the only team that has used the draft almost exclusively to build their team.
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05-10-2009, 08:06 PM	#83
Marcellus Diablo Negro Join Date: Sep 2003 Casino cash: $3132662	I think it should be well known by now that the Pats have used free agency and the draft equally depending on the year to build their SB teams. It really all depends on what is on the market as FA and what's in the draft year to year. Why people think you can only draft to improve or sign big players in FA to improve is beyond me. It's a combination of what is out there at the time, salary cap considerations, and what your weak points are. Also how good or bad the team is as a whole going into off season. It also depends on who you have that may lose due to FA. There is not a complete book on this. Both Dallas and San Fran in the 90's did either or year to year. NE has done both. The Steelers are probably the only team that has used the draft almost exclusively to build their team.
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05-10-2009, 08:09 PM	#84
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