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Old 05-18-2019, 05:33 PM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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McMaster Uses Worn Vietnam Trope to Accuse Americans of Defeatism

After nearly 18 years in Afghanistan, the people know the war is lost. When will Washington elites let go?


Former national security advisor H.R. McMaster lamented the lack of public support for the war in Afghanistan last week. The American public, he complained, has succumbed to “this defeatist narrative” of “war weariness.”

This view, which evokes a familiar Vietnam War trope, is common among the foreign policy establishment in Washington, which sees the voting public as children and itself as the “adults in the room.” The way they see it, they’re there to make the hard decisions on war and peace for a population that just doesn’t understand.[This is the same condescending view that some experienced former military posters have used here. It's elitist.*]

Nothing could be further from the truth. McMaster’s speech laid bare Washington’s ignorance of what’s at stake: it’s up to the people, not a few so-called elites, to decide which wars are worth fighting. And after almost two decades in which no war has ended on terms beneficial to America—or ended at all—it is clearly the war-weary people, and not the elites, who understand the situation better.

After leaving the White House, McMaster became chairman of the new Center on Military and Political Power at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. FDD is a Washington-based neoconservative outfit that’s been promoting U.S. wars of choice since the Iraq invasion in 2003.

The American Conservative
Pay attention to the name of that outfit because they are a key culprit pushing hyper-interventionist policies including being behind the overthrow of the Ukrainian elected govt. They are globalists and don't give a shit about America or the lives of American soldiers who they use for cannon fodder.


* How's that for another plug for you OldCoach.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:54 PM   #2
theoldcoach theoldcoach is offline
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I am quite sure that you know more about America's foreign affairs than does a 3 star General, former war hero, the former National Security advisor who is a West Point graduate, who was instrumental in destroying the ISIS Caliphate and has a PhD in American History.

You know what BEP...…………..between you and you conspiracy friends and the General. I think I will go with the General on knowledge of United States foreign affairs.

But, by all means...………….carry on.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:09 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by theoldcoach View Post
I am quite sure that you know more about America's foreign affairs than does a 3 star General, former war hero, the former National Security advisor who is a West Point graduate, who was instrumental in destroying the ISIS Caliphate and has a PhD in American History.

You know what BEP...…………..between you and you conspiracy friends and the General. I think I will go with the General on knowledge of United States foreign affairs.

But, by all means...………….carry on.
Does that include the fact he was against leaving the Iran deal and doesn't want a war with Iran? Why do you think Bolton replaced him?

Well it's good to see you reveal you support a general, who is a Soros stooge for globalism.

Keep reading the corporate-owned media, especially Fox. Click your heels and obey! Don't ask questions even if means supporting an anti-American globalist who is also a known drunk.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:24 AM   #4
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoldcoach View Post
I am quite sure that you know more about America's foreign affairs than does a 3 star General, former war hero, the former National Security advisor who is a West Point graduate, who was instrumental in destroying the ISIS Caliphate and has a PhD in American History.

You know what BEP...…………..between you and you conspiracy friends and the General. I think I will go with the General on knowledge of United States foreign affairs.

But, by all means...………….carry on.

That logic doesn’t work. Not after 70 years of foreign policy failures following the Marshall Plan, the last time we did something That worked


These “experts” admitted later on that they knew Vietnam was a mistake but they couldn’t get out. We don’t owe any of these people benefit of the doubt.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:50 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
That logic doesn’t work. Not after 70 years of foreign policy failures following the Marshall Plan, the last time we did something That worked


These “experts” admitted later on that they knew Vietnam was a mistake but they couldn’t get out. We don’t owe any of these people benefit of the doubt.
^^^^ Coward ^^^^
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:07 AM   #7
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Can u imagine losing your legs in Vietnam, being condemned to a wheelchair forever, only to hear later our leaders KNEW it was unwinnable but they sent you anyway?
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:09 AM   #8
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McMaster has a typical elitist progressive view of Americans—they are deplorables. Yet TheOldCoach supports a man like that.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:05 AM   #9
theoldcoach theoldcoach is offline
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What I support is that people that sit for classified briefings and foreign policy security briefings every day know more about foreign policy than you do.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:20 AM   #10
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What I support is that people that sit for classified briefings and foreign policy security briefings every day know more about foreign policy than you do.
Well, that's your whole problem—trusting the state blindly which is hardly a conservative position.

Let's take a look at it:
Have you considered how they false reported the Russiagate narrative? Like how they got rid of Mike Flynn but hid the reals reasons? He exposed the Obama admin using ISIS and other jihadi-linked rebels to remove Assad.

You don't think someone up there who strongly desires a particular action, would not pass on all the information needed to make the best decision? You seem to think there are no MIC patsies who work up there, or ideologues who seek the remake the MW, even the world to not feed things to a president to get their way.

No, NOT when there are dishonest men like Bolton, Pompeo up there. Or men like Cheney and Rumsfeld under Bush who leaned on the CIA to make the intel fit the policy.

Sorry to break it to you, this is exactly what happened in the lead up to Iraq, Syria and Libya:
  • Michael Scheuer former CIA analyst, left the CIA because Cheney leaned on them to make the intel fit the policy. Afterwards, the CIA was filled with lackeys for Bush
  • I posted an article by Ray McGovern former CIA who used to prepare presidential daily briefings pretty much lays out the case for how these things can go have not been going the way you think.
  • JHC the CIA didn't even know that the Soviet Union was crumbling from the inside and about to fall. They do get things wrong at times. It took a spy contacting the British, which resulted in a call from Thatcher to Reagan to open the doors to a real dialogue and the rest was history.
  • Former CIA spy, Robert Steele, who has ideas for how to reform how our intel claims the Presidential Daily Briefings are crap—that you can get the same thing from the news. Once in a while you get a gem from a foreign govt. He advocates an open-source system which is more accurate.
  • Dr. Pieczenick is former State Dept involved in intel opposes what is going on and says both Bolton and Pompeo need to be canned. Pompeo lacks the skills for his post. Bolton is just a bold-faced liar. Rand Paul a Republican wants Bolton gone as he is a malignant influence.

It's up to our press to keep the govt honest on these things and the MSM is not doing it...it is the paleocons and libertarians with a few progressives that are doing a better job. During Vietnam there was Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers to get the truth out.

You must have fallen for all the lies before we invaded Iraq. You're either naive about govt or you're another Evangelical Israeli Firster who wants Armageddon so he can convert Jews to save them. If not they can burn in hell. So which one is it?
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:24 AM   #11
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Can u imagine losing your legs in Vietnam, being condemned to a wheelchair forever, only to hear later our leaders KNEW it was unwinnable but they sent you anyway?
Most neo-conservatives arent very bright. They usually live in rural areas where information isnt as easy to access.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:33 AM   #12
theoldcoach theoldcoach is offline
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Can u imagine losing your legs in Vietnam, being condemned to a wheelchair forever, only to hear later our leaders KNEW it was unwinnable but they sent you anyway?
Every veteran that fought in the Vietnam War sees that War through their own set of eyes. And each have an opinion.

Personally......I believe that we could have won in that war had we have had a plan to do so. But from the very beginning...…..we did not. And I think our had a fatal flaw.

I believed then and I believe now that we could have won in Vietnam had we cut off the Laos peninsula. We would have, and should have (in my opinion) invaded and occupied the peninsula very early in the war. We could have then broken the Ho Che Minh Trail and permanently cut off their supply lines and personnel movements. It couldn't be done from the air. It would have had to be done by occupying forces. And it was not.

That was my feeling back then and that is still my feeling today.

But I didn't sit in on foreign policy decisions, I didn't get security or war briefings. And I didn't make the decisions. Mine was not to question why. Mine was to do as I was ordered and to try to stay alive. Fortunately for me......I did.

That is all with the vision of after-sight.

Do our planners and foreign policy advisors make mistakes. Certainly they do and certainly they have. I and many of my buddies paid a dear price for some of them. Some paid the ultimate price. But I really don't want to get into any of that here. I live it every night.

But I still place my faith in those that sit in those meetings every day more than I do any of the rest of us. I have to. I don't have to agree with them. Neither do you or BEP or anyone else have to agree with them. Fortunately we live in a country where it is our right to question why. And I would fight to my death for all of us to forever have that right.

If my faith is misplaced...……….then so be it. But I have to pray that they make appropriate foreign policy decisions. That goes for this administration as well as every future administration. Knowing full well that mistakes will be made. And knowing full well that I can't change that.

Sorry for the length of this post.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:35 AM   #13
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Can u imagine losing your legs in Vietnam, being condemned to a wheelchair forever, only to hear later our leaders KNEW it was unwinnable but they sent you anyway?
And you find out the real truth about the GULF OF TONKIN incident! As one Vietnam Veteran once said - They wave the flag when we attack, when we came home they turned their back
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:36 AM   #14
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Every veteran that fought in the Vietnam War sees that War through their own set of eyes. And each have an opinion.

Personally......I believe that we could have won in that war had we have had a plan to do so. But from the very beginning...…..we did not. And I think our had a fatal flaw.
The same old worn-out trope. Did you know that we went into that war because of being in SEATO which was under the UN?

Truman's violation of the Constitution to get involved in the Korean War without Congress was the beginning of that problem of no-win wars.

But that was also carried out due to our UN membership—which is why that war ended in a stalemate. We were winning the Korean War but it was due to UN interference in ended in a stalemate.

Ultimately, Vietnam all turned out fine. We trade with that country now. The Vietnamese LOVE Trump. What's not to like? Seriously, you suffer from the sin of pride.


Quote:
Sorry for the length of this post.
Long posts are okay. But the ME is not Vietnam. McMaster needs to know that but doesn't apparently. There are Republicans who supported the Iraq war, defended even afterwards, who felt it was time to get out of Aghanistan back in 2006. My rep was one of them. It is called the Graveyard of Empires for a reason. No empire, not the British or the Soviet Empire could tame it. It's time to go and stop the nation building there. We need money for our own infrastructure.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:38 AM   #15
theoldcoach theoldcoach is offline
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You're either naive about govt or you're another Evangelical Israeli Firster who wants Armageddon so he can convert Jews to save them. If not they can burn in hell. So which one is it?
Why don't you stop worrying about what I am?

I am a 70+ year old man......who is free to believe whatever the f**k I want to believe whenever I want to believe it.

You can preach to me until you are blue in the face. It will not change my beliefs.

If you do not like what I say then just put me on ignore and move on to the next person that you think you can enlighten.
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