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Old 07-23-2014, 04:32 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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The problem of Evil and death of children

Sam Harris will challenge your world view if you watch this. Christians should avoid watching this at all costs.

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Old 07-30-2014, 05:41 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
I didn't use his words as my own. I quoted him. Am I not allowed to quote scholars when arguing a premise?

Also, quote where I implied that a belief in God is required for someone to be morally sound. As I previously said, it's similar to saying that a belief in air is required to breathe.
Actually, you did both:

Where did you read that? If a higher power or lawgiver is absent in our universe, there is no exact definition of what is right and what is wrong. As humans, we morally know that killing and raping is wrong and care, love, and compassion is morally right. These morals cannot exist accidentally or rely specifically on the imperfect view of society, so there must be a basis. This basis is God. Without God, objective moral values cannot exist because humanity would determine their own morals. Morality in itself would be subjective and decided by us.

As Dennis Prager puts it,

Quote:
If a higher power or lawgiver is absent in our universe, there is no exact definition of what is right and what is wrong. As humans, we morally know that killing and raping is wrong and care, love, and compassion is morally right. These morals cannot exist accidentally or rely specifically on the imperfect view of society, so there must be a basis. This basis is God. Without God, objective moral values cannot exist because humanity would determine their own morals. Morality in itself would be subjective and decided by us.

Other than the first sentence/question, you copied and pasted his words as your own. Then you quoted him.
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:43 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
Also, quote where I implied that a belief in God is required for someone to be morally sound. As I previously said, it's similar to saying that a belief in air is required to breathe.
So your answer is: "No, I don't not believe that one must believe in God in order to have morals"?

It's a pretty simple question. I personally don't believe that one has to believe in God to have morals.
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Old 07-30-2014, 05:58 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by tooge View Post
You don't know what empathy means. Animals feel loss. They feel sadness at loss. They may, and there is no evidence of this, feel SYMPATHY for the loss of another animal, for instance, if another female dog in the pack lost a pup. However, empathy is putting oneself into the situation of the other being and projecting the feelings you would have "if it was you." Animals must be self conscious to do this, as well as be capable of other emotions. There simply is not any evidence that dogs, for example, are self conscious. They don't "know" they are here and alive, they just are.
Just curious... how do you test such a thing?

Humans have proven to underestimate the emotional range of pack mammals since we started trying. How do you test for self awareness efficiently?

How can you prove that an asian elephant who consoles another elephant that is stressed out (a documented behavior) doesn't understand how the other feels?

It sounds like confirmation bias at work to me. Humans are smarter without question... but how can we prove our FEELINGS are more evolved or felt any deeper?
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:46 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
The proof is right in my face? You haven't provided ANY proof. You criticize me for playing God of the gaps, but yet the only thing you've said is "evolution!" followed by more ad-hominems. Explain to me how evolution provides us with moral absolutes.
Watch how rarely pack mammals kill among their own species. Watch how rarely they eat their own species. They don't rape small cubs. Some of this immoral behavior is more strongly represented in mankind.

Do they have divine moral absolutes?

Or are we all just programmed to act in ways that ensure not just our own survival, but the survival of our entire species? In my eyes this is a case of humans rationalizing a very simple idea: Most objective moral values oppose things clearly destructive to our success as a species, and thus are instinctively opposed by us. I don't really see any reason to wrap that up in supernatural ideas. People just create complex belief systems around simple and common behaviors like not killing your own species. We can also create systems of punishment for violators.

I don't see any way that objective morals require a divine law giver.
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:32 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Fisher View Post
The proof is right in my face? You haven't provided ANY proof. You criticize me for playing God of the gaps, but yet the only thing you've said is "evolution!" followed by more ad-hominems. Explain to me how evolution provides us with moral absolutes.
Have you never heard of empathy? You don't like having your shit stolen and know how devastating that can be, so that's one of the main reasons you don't steal other people's things. Same way for other "sins".

People didn't develop morals from a book or from a God. Otherwise how do you explain civilizations before the bible? How do you explain people of other religious backgrounds acting morally? How do you explain people who have no religious background acting morally?

I asked this earlier in this thread but I'll repeat it. If you believe God is the reason for your morality, does that mean without God you'd be murdering and raping people?
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:41 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by -King- View Post
Have you never heard of empathy? You don't like having your shit stolen and know how devastating that can be, so that's one of the main reasons you don't steal other people's things. Same way for other "sins".

People didn't develop morals from a book or from a God. Otherwise how do you explain civilizations before the bible? How do you explain people of other religious backgrounds acting morally? How do you explain people who have no religious background acting morally?

I asked this earlier in this thread but I'll repeat it. If you believe God is the reason for your morality, does that mean without God you'd be murdering and raping people?
He's not indicating people get their objective morals from a book (which would, btw, make them subjective morals derived from a book) he's saying they're inherent in all people because god gave them to us. In that case they would have existed long before the bible was written and inherent in non christians as well.

I dunno if you're building a strawman or just misunderstanding his argument, but he's actually had to re-state this multiple times. His argument isn't about the bible's influence or moral code.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:55 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooge View Post
You don't know what empathy means. Animals feel loss. They feel sadness at loss. They may, and there is no evidence of this, feel SYMPATHY for the loss of another animal, for instance, if another female dog in the pack lost a pup. However, empathy is putting oneself into the situation of the other being and projecting the feelings you would have "if it was you." Animals must be self conscious to do this, as well as be capable of other emotions. There simply is not any evidence that dogs, for example, are self conscious. They don't "know" they are here and alive, they just are.
True to a point monkeys are self aware. If you really want there was an excellent NPR story on this a couple days ago about the experiments they have done in this area. If you want I can hunt for the podcasts if you have any interest.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:59 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 07-31-2014, 07:11 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
True to a point monkeys are self aware. If you really want there was an excellent NPR story on this a couple days ago about the experiments they have done in this area. If you want I can hunt for the podcasts if you have any interest.
He may not care, but I would appreciate it Dave. I'm very interested in the subject.
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