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Old 08-04-2015, 06:10 PM  
Eleazar Eleazar is offline
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Seattle's $15 minimum wage redux

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Seattle became the first city in the nation to implement the $15 per hour minimum wage this past spring. Fox News reports that one unintended effect is that workers who are earning the higher wage are asking for fewer hours, so they can remain eligible for low income government benefits like childcare and tax credits.

Full Life Care, a home nursing nonprofit, told KIRO-TV in Seattle that several workers want to work less.

Local radio talk show host Jason Rantz on KIRO-FM noted the irony: “If [employees] cut down their hours to stay on those subsidies because the $15 per hour minimum wage didn’t actually help get them out of poverty, all you’ve done is put a burden on the business and given false hope to a lot of people.”

“Despite a booming economy throughout western Washington, the state’s welfare caseload has dropped very little since the higher wage phase began in Seattle in April. In March 130,851 people were enrolled in the Basic Food program. In April, the caseload dropped to 130,376,” according to Fox News.

...

“Some restaurants have tacked on a 15 percent surcharge to cover the higher wages. And some managers are no longer encouraging customers to tip, leading to a redistribution of income. Workers in the back of the kitchen, such as dishwashers and cooks, are getting paid more, but servers who rely on tips are seeing a pay cut,” Fox News reported.

...

Earlier this year, as the implementation of the minimum wage law loomed, Seattle Magazine noted that something appeared to be afoot affecting the restaurant industry in the city, asking: “Why Are So Many Seattle Restaurants Closing Lately? “Seattle foodies [are] downcast,” the magazine reported

...

The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.” Anthony Anton, president and CEO of the Washington Restaurant Association, told the magazine: “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.” He estimates that restaurants usually have a budget breakdown of about 36 percent for labor, 30 percent for food costs, and 30 percent to cover other operational costs. That leaves 4 percent for a profit margin. When labor costs shoot up to, say 42 percent, something has to give.

Shah Burnham is just one Seattle restaurant owner who believes that keeping her doors open is no longer worth it. She owns a popular Z Pizza restaurant location and says that even though her one store only has 12 employees, she’s considered part of the Z Pizza franchise — a large business. So she has to give raises within the next two years. “Small businesses in the city have up to six more years to phase in the new $15 an hour minimum wage,” according to Seattle’s Fox News 13.

“I know that I would have stayed here if I had 7 years, just like everyone else, if I had an even playing field,” she says. “The discrimination I’m feeling right now against my small business makes me not want to stay and do anything in Seattle.”

...

The Heritage Foundation notes the minimum wage is usually for new workers, with a low percentage of Americans receiving it. The organization also points out some other interesting statistics:

Over half of minimum-wage earners are between the ages of 16 and 24.
Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers earn raises within a year—without the government’s help.
Only 2.9 percent of wage earners earn the federal minimum wage.
Most minimum-wage earners are teenagers or young adults, not heads of families.
Two-thirds work part time (defined as less than 35 hours a week).
Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers live in families with incomes above 150 percent of the poverty line.
Just 4 percent of minimum-wage workers are single parents working full time, compared to 5.6 percent of all U.S. workers.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/sea...ent=2015-08-04
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:58 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
This would be valid if he hadn't said what I posted. But he did.

I asked him probably a dozen times what rate would keep a single mother with two kids off of government assistance and he refused to answer.

But he most certainly put forth that standard.
He is pretty clearly stating that it's not his position.
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:59 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
This would be valid if he hadn't said what I posted. But he did.

I asked him probably a dozen times what rate would keep a single mother with two kids off of government assistance and he refused to answer.

But he most certainly put forth that standard.
To be fair lone does his fair share of insulting. It's fair play to give him back his own shit.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
He is pretty clearly stating that it's not his position.
He's changed his position then.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #124
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
When you get caught in an argument you have no answer to you normally start flooding the thread with material that isn't relevant to the point being argued and going into histrionics.

Then inevitably comes emoticons and "you're a dumbass," etc.

That's why you're a spaz. As the thread goes on the word count in your posts skyrockets and the hissy fit escalates.
Keep lying Liar.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You should check out the CBO report.

They did a great job of covering all aspects of this debate.

And by check out, I mean actually read, not rely on some article cherry picking one bad thing while ignoring everything else.

Then you can check out the studies of any of the 22 times we have raised the minimum wage. Has our economy crashed yet?



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/op...wage.html?_r=1

Now, as suzzy has pointed out, any negative outcomes are always outweighed by the positive outcomes.

Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?
http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...ge-2013-02.pdf

So, if you want to answer the question yourself, using the 22 different times the minimum wage was raised, feel free. Then I can respond.
So, you are of the opinion that there's no downside to raising the minimum wage? If not, what is or are the downsides? I'm asking you. Please feel free to answer with your own words.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:01 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Keep lying Liar.
Um, you do all of the things I mentioned.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:01 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
He's changed his position then.
Ok. So his old position was wrong in your eyes. How about his current position that $15/hr will be a net positive?
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:03 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaise View Post
He's changed his position then.
No, liar, I've always stated my position.

You can check any minimum wage thread. You'll say that same exact lie, I'll mention the federal poverty line, you'll ignore it, and repeat.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:04 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, you are of the opinion that there's no downside to raising the minimum wage? If not, what is or are the downsides? I'm asking you. Please feel free to answer with your own words.
So you don't want to do your own research and are asking me to summarize the studies that focus on the 22 times we have raised the minimum wage?

I'm not your intern.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:04 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Why are these businesses so inefficient today that their employees could be doing more than they currently are? It seems like a more efficient competitor would eat them alive.
Probably because they all rely on the same labor pool.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:05 PM   #131
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Ok. So his old position was wrong in your eyes. How about his current position that $15/hr will be a net positive?
If Seattle wants to set minimum wage at $15 it's their city. They have voters. I don't care.
I don't know what the net outcome will be.

As far as his old position being wrong or right - That statement is incorrect. I never said it was either. It was a standard he put forth as a way to show that minimum wage was too low. His reasoning was that people working minimum wage jobs relied on government assistance, therefore minimum wage was too low.
My question to him was, if that was his stance, where would the minimum wage need to be set.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:05 PM   #132
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I want the liberals to go on record here as well. Both sides are equally good at running as far as they can and then drawing a goal line right behind them. I want people to define success/failure and to pick a side.
Do you have to be a liberal by definition to support min. wage increases? Can you just think it's a good idea?

Failure would be they roll it back due to public outcry or Seattle turns into some depressed hell hole while areas around it do ok. Success I guess would be life goes on and Seattle's economy chugs along. Do you have a different definition?

Teasing out specific results of this from the overall economy in Seattle is going to be tough. You'd just get a bunch of he said/she said from each side claiming numbers support them.
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:08 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
So you don't want to do your own research and are asking me to summarize the studies that focus on the 22 times we have raised the minimum wage?

I'm not your intern.
Economists have conducted hundreds of studies of the employment impact of the minimum wage. Summarizing those studies is a daunting task, but two recent meta studies analyzing the research conducted since the early 1990s concludes that the minimum wage has little or no discernible effect on the employment prospects of low wage workers

I take it you agree with this?
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:09 PM   #134
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Probably because they all rely on the same labor pool.
If that labor pool is filled with employees capable of doing their current duties as well as those of others once layoffs happen, why can't those same employees do that work now? You seem to be suggesting that this labor pool will suddenly become more dynamic. I don't follow your reasoning.

If they're capable of doing more, and employers will get them to do so in the future, why doesn't some enterprising businessperson take advantage of this latent productivity and make a mint?
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:09 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Who said there's no downside? I want to ridicule that person.
What do you think the downside would be, since Loneiguana refuses to give his own opinion?
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