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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM  
Donger Donger is offline
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Bungled collusion is still collusion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:54 PM   #16
IowaHawkeyeChief IowaHawkeyeChief is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
So let me get this straight... Don Jr. thought Hillary and the DNC was being funded by Russia...

What should he do... He didn't have any info yet, he didn't know what it was about and yet he should have given this to the FBI or DOJ, who had teamed up to already let Hillary off the hook on her private server... Tarmac anyone. Please, they did the right thing by taking the meeting in the climate with the FBI and DOJ and establishment backlash that existed. Just like the DNC and Podesta emails... The content was what caused the problem not the hack. This meeting was set up as a ploy speak about sanctions that stopped adoptions...
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:25 PM   #17
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It is a good thing the Hilliary crew didn't collude with the US media to do a timed release of a private conversation Trump had years ago.

Do people really think "grab her by the pussy" didn't do a ton of harm to his campaign? It would have been the worst landslide in history if she didn't have most Every media outlet and social media site slamming Trump non-stop the entire election.

Yet the Dems want to cry the election was unfair? Pathetic.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfcan View Post
It is a good thing the Hilliary crew didn't collude with the US media to do a timed release of a private conversation Trump had years ago.

Do people really think "grab her by the pussy" didn't do a ton of harm to his campaign? It would have been the worst landslide in history if she didn't have most Ever media outlet and social media site slamming Trump non-stop the entire election.

Yet the Dems want to cry the election was unfair? Pathetic.
Any evidence of this assertion? I wouldn't put it past her or Bubba, but I've not seen anything on it.

And, if she did, there's a rather large difference between the two.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:37 PM   #19
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Bungled collusion may be collusion, but not all collusion is wrong. I think Trump critics still have a hurdle to clear on that point.

What if a Russian provided convincing information indicating that your political opponent is really a spy on the payroll of the KGB? Is it OK to receive that type of negative information or should you scrupulously avoid listening to anything anyone with a Russian accent has to say?

Unless you give sensitive information to the Russians, get involved in a quid pro quo with them to get information, or involve yourself in a conspiracy to commit a crime, I'm not convinced that "collusion" is wrong.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:42 PM   #20
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Collusion bungled or not—is not a crime. Our govt engages in various kinds of collusion ALL the time.

You may not like it, but it's a political complaint.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:42 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Bungled collusion may be collusion, but not all collusion is wrong. I think Trump critics still have a hurdle to clear on that point.

What if a Russian provided convincing information indicating that your political opponent is really a spy on the payroll of the KGB? Is it OK to receive that type of negative information or should you scrupulously avoid listening to anything anyone with a Russian accent has to say?

Unless you give sensitive information to the Russians, get involved in a quid pro quo with them to get information, or involve yourself in a conspiracy to commit a crime, I'm not convinced that "collusion" is wrong.
You honestly don't think you should go right to the FBI in that scenario? They could determine whether they want use you and then you are covered.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:42 PM   #22
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Son Donger is a GOPe guy. Such a Tory. Go home to England where your mind-set fits in better.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:43 PM   #23
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You honestly don't think you should go right to the FBI in that scenario? They could determine whether they want use you and then you are covered.
FBI has a long history of dishonesty and corruption.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Bungled collusion may be collusion, but not all collusion is wrong. I think Trump critics still have a hurdle to clear on that point.

What if a Russian provided convincing information indicating that your political opponent is really a spy on the payroll of the KGB? Is it OK to receive that type of negative information or should you scrupulously avoid listening to anything anyone with a Russian accent has to say?

Unless you give sensitive information to the Russians, get involved in a quid pro quo with them to get information, or involve yourself in a conspiracy to commit a crime, I'm not convinced that "collusion" is wrong.
I tend to agree for the most part.

In the case of the spy or KGB, I would hope that any American's first decision would be to get that to the FBI.

Maybe we'll find out what actually was discussed at the meeting. I hope so, anyway. Based on what this woman and the spook have lobbied for, perhaps the quid pro quo was an easing of sanctions? Complete speculation.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:44 PM   #25
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Son Donger is a GOPe guy. Such a Tory. Go home to England where your mind-set fits in better.
Bite me, twat. I'm a conservative and Republican. I didn't make the Faustian deal you chose to make. Sorry that it's left a bitter taste in your mouth.

Oh wait. No, I'm not.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:46 PM   #26
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There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal.

You would of thought he would have lead with the above sentences instead of burying it in the end. It would save the reader a lot of time. Just tell us that when we say collusion we are not saying any laws were broke, but rather the people who voted for Hillary are outraged about how unethical some campaigns are run.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:47 PM   #27
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Whats funny is people like Donger believe Trump has been in bed with the Ruskies since 2013 or whenever it was (mentioned in the dossier) yet Trump Jr needed to meet with this lawyer via a 3rd party non Russian contact to see if they had any dirt on Russia and Clinton.

If Trump was really in bed with the Russians and they were feeding him stuff is THIS how they would do it?

Russia's spy craft isn't any better than sending an email with the subject titled Clinton Dirt or whatever it was? This was the Russian connection.

Yea I don't think so.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:49 PM   #28
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There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal.

You would of thought he would have lead with the above sentence instead of burying it in the end. It would save the reader a lot of time. Just tell us that when we say collusion we are not saying any laws were broke, but rather the people who voted for Hillary are outraged about how unethical some campaigns are run.
Boom.

He's talking to you and your kind Lex.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:03 PM   #29
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There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal.

You would of thought he would have lead with the above sentences instead of burying it in the end. It would save the reader a lot of time. Just tell us that when we say collusion we are not saying any laws were broke, but rather the people who voted for Hillary are outraged about how unethical some campaigns are run.
Unfortunately, there's all kinds of foreign input during our elections, either sought by campaigns or offered. Israel is one of the most obvious ones. China has been involved with the Clintons as was the Ukrainian govt.

Afterall, when you operate like you're the Roman Empire, it affects the whole world. It just invites it, though it did also occur during the early days of the Republic when some wanted us involved in the French Revolution. It's just going to be more common when our actions are spread out all over the world. Even before we had a faction in our govt wanting to invade Iraq, a foreigner by the name of Chalabi fed us intel that turned to be false—because he wanted Saddam overthrown.

Frankly, I don't have a problem if another nation has something on a politician running since we should know about it. I think that's in the public's interest to know. It's more a sad statement about our media not doing it. Still information is information. Other actions by another nation like funding campaigns I am opposed to.

No one seems to have a big problem with the HA Bush tape that was recorded illegally in a state where both parties have to consent.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:08 PM   #30
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FBI has a long history of dishonesty and corruption.
So go it alone and if you get caught you have no logical explanation?

That seems risky at best.
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