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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM  
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Bungled collusion is still collusion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:42 PM   #61
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I don't think anyone is or at least shouldn't be saying what Jr. did wasn't dumb. It was. It was ****ing stupid. But other than it looking bad there isn't much more to it.
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:44 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Bungled collusion may be collusion, but not all collusion is wrong. I think Trump critics still have a hurdle to clear on that point.

What if a Russian provided convincing information indicating that your political opponent is really a spy on the payroll of the KGB? Is it OK to receive that type of negative information or should you scrupulously avoid listening to anything anyone with a Russian accent has to say?

Unless you give sensitive information to the Russians, get involved in a quid pro quo with them to get information, or involve yourself in a conspiracy to commit a crime, I'm not convinced that "collusion" is wrong.
Evidence that Donald Trump Jr. finds convincing wouldn't necessarily be evidence of something that was actually taking place. It's not Donald Trump Jr's call. That's why candidates are expected to take this shit to the FBI.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:46 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post
Boom.

He's talking to you and your kind Lex.
If by "my kind" you mean people who see Trump for the arrogant and blundering buffoon that he is, that's OK with me.
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"I just start kissing them. Itís like a magnet. Just kiss. I donít even wait. And when youíre a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." - Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States

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Old 07-14-2017, 06:46 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
Evidence that Donald Trump Jr. finds convincing wouldn't necessarily be evidence of something that was actually taking place. It's not Donald Trump Jr's call. That's why candidates are expected to take this shit to the FBI.
Like the other campaign did? Again, I find it ironic that what the Clinton campaign did was arguably worse but is getting a pass because she lost. That's just intellectually dishonest.
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:48 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Like the other campaign did? Again, I find it ironic that what the Clinton campaign did was arguably worse but is getting a pass because she lost. That's just intellectually dishonest.
Yep!

Still, it was not illegal. I don't see any need to take to the FBI. We're not a war with Russia. It's just some want to be.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:49 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
I agree with Krauthammer. It's sad that Donald Junior was ready to jump at the chance to engage in something that is wrong, and corrupt, if not illegal, even though we all know the Clintons engage in the same and worse, and would have done the same thing.

His saying "I'm in" burns him, even though they were suckered into a meeting about something else and nothing seems to have come of it. It only increases the ignominy that they screwed it up.

Were this a Clinton scandal they'd quarantine this person as an "overzealous supporter" and she's say that she had no knowledge of it and the media would cheerfully move on to puff pieces. But you can't really do that when the idiot is your son. They need to put him out of the camp and move on.
It's refreshing to see a conservative acknowledge this, instead of just repeating "BUT HILLARY BUT HILLARY BUT HILLARY" over and over.

Thank you.
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"Donald Trump is a ****ing moron" - Rex Tillerson (R), Trump's Secretary of State

"Trump may be setting the US on the path to World War III. I know for a fact that every single day at the White House, itís a situation of trying to contain him." - Senator Robert Corker (R), Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

"I just start kissing them. Itís like a magnet. Just kiss. I donít even wait. And when youíre a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." - Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States

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Old 07-14-2017, 06:50 PM   #67
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He's a never-Trump boob. And I for one love having him here. He's a true court jester.
That is an oxymoron.
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"Donald Trump is a ****ing moron" - Rex Tillerson (R), Trump's Secretary of State

"Trump may be setting the US on the path to World War III. I know for a fact that every single day at the White House, itís a situation of trying to contain him." - Senator Robert Corker (R), Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

"I just start kissing them. Itís like a magnet. Just kiss. I donít even wait. And when youíre a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." - Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States

"Trump, Trump, Trump! We love Trump!" - TTS* sufferers

*TrumpTard Syndrome
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:52 PM   #68
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....misplaced overreaction is still overreaction.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:52 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
It's refreshing to see a conservative acknowledge this, instead of just repeating "BUT HILLARY BUT HILLARY BUT HILLARY" over and over.

Thank you.
Krauthammer is not a "conservative". He is a McCain. Establishment. Hardly a conservative. Just claims to be one. The epitome of a RINO if you will.
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:53 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
It's refreshing to see a conservative acknowledge this, instead of just repeating "BUT HILLARY BUT HILLARY BUT HILLARY" over and over.

Thank you.
And it's tiresome to see people ignore what one person did so they can pile on the other one simply cause they don't like them. If it's wrong, it's wrong. You can't have it both ways. Well,y ou can but you lose all credibility in doing so.
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:55 PM   #71
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http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...9&postcount=51

Is Collusion Illegal? Well, it Depends Ö

Like what kind it is.

Marketplace collusion between business interests is illegal as it falls under Antitrust laws (competition laws), to protect consumers from shady business practices to ensure competition and fairness. Price-fixing, bribery of a public official are examples of this kind of collusion and this kind is a crime.

This does not apply to political collusion where all political campaigns try to gain an unfair advantage over a competing candidate.

Quote:
The word collusion has sort of evolved to loosely and unofficially encompass a variety of non-related offenses. Itís so watered down that itís almost reached the point of being a slang term, much like the word ďMaceĒis often used to incorrectly identify all chemical sprays used by police. Not so. Mace is a trademarked name of a company that manufactures a variety of merchandise under the same name.
Back-door channels to foreign govts, including one's considered hostile by a president elect's team is not collusion nor illegal. Talking to a foreign govt by a campaign is also not illegal. Heck, candidates have to go visit Bibi in Israel to be vetted. ( I don't agree with it but that's a different matter.)

Obtaining political information about an opponent is also not illegal, nor is filing fake lawsuits to discredit a candidate illegal to then advertise it in the press. The latter may be dirty but it is not illegal.
Quote:
Asking someone to release information about a political opponent is not illegal unless the party asking was involved in illegally obtaining the information in question (wiretaps, illegally recorded conversations, etc.). Still, the act of asking to release information is not in itself a federal crime.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:55 PM   #72
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Krauthammer is not a "conservative". He is a McCain. Establishment. Hardly a conservative. Just claims to be one. The epitome of a RINO if you will.
JFC, your reading comprehension sucks. I quoted Cochise when I made that comment, and I thanked him. I was obviously referring to Cochise, not Krauthammer.
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"Donald Trump is a ****ing moron" - Rex Tillerson (R), Trump's Secretary of State

"Trump may be setting the US on the path to World War III. I know for a fact that every single day at the White House, itís a situation of trying to contain him." - Senator Robert Corker (R), Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

"I just start kissing them. Itís like a magnet. Just kiss. I donít even wait. And when youíre a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." - Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States

"Trump, Trump, Trump! We love Trump!" - TTS* sufferers

*TrumpTard Syndrome
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:56 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
And it's tiresome to see people ignore what one person did so they can pile on the other one simply cause they don't like them. If it's wrong, it's wrong. You can't have it both ways. Well,y ou can but you lose all credibility in doing so.
It's tiresome to see you respond to posts that you don't understand.
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"Donald Trump is a ****ing moron" - Rex Tillerson (R), Trump's Secretary of State

"Trump may be setting the US on the path to World War III. I know for a fact that every single day at the White House, itís a situation of trying to contain him." - Senator Robert Corker (R), Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

"I just start kissing them. Itís like a magnet. Just kiss. I donít even wait. And when youíre a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." - Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States

"Trump, Trump, Trump! We love Trump!" - TTS* sufferers

*TrumpTard Syndrome
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:56 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
JFC, your reading comprehension sucks. I quoted Cochise when I made that comment, and I thanked him. I was obviously referring to Cochise, not Krauthammer.
I misunderstood your post, calm down, Betty
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:56 PM   #75
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Criminal attorney—
Alan Dershowitz:

"Well first of all I don’t see any evidence of collusion, and second even if there was major collusion, that’s not a crime. Even hypothetically if the administration or the candidate got together with the Russians and said, “Please help me become president. Do whatever you can to help me.” That wouldn’t be a crime… The most serious condemnations that have been made have nothing to do with criminal conduct. Collusion with the Russians is not criminal conduct.”
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