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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM  
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Bungled collusion is still collusion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:57 PM   #76
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Evidence that Donald Trump Jr. finds convincing wouldn't necessarily be evidence of something that was actually taking place. It's not Donald Trump Jr's call. That's why candidates are expected to take this shit to the FBI.
I don't know what you mean by it's not Trump Jr's call. What call?

Edit: I meant convincing to you (the reader), but if it helps, just ignore the word "convincing".
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:01 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
It's tiresome to see you respond to posts that you don't understand.
Nice deflection...
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:02 PM   #78
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Krauthammer is not a "conservative". He is a McCain. Establishment. Hardly a conservative. Just claims to be one. The epitome of a RINO if you will.
Yep! And the Establishment GOP hate Trump just as much, possibly even more. They hate his "America First" agenda because they are all in the tank for globalism. Cochise and Donger come to mind as Trump-haters.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:03 PM   #79
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If people aren't supposed to be allowed to listen to Russians without notifying the FBI first, we shouldn't let Russians (even Russian government workers and Russians we know to be spies) roam our streets freely.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:07 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If people aren't supposed to be allowed to listen to Russians without notifying the FBI first, we shouldn't let Russians (even Russian government workers and Russians we know to be spies) roam our streets freely.
The lawyer lady was denied entry by Obama's State Dept. only be to be granted entry by Lynch. There's definitely a pattern appearing regarding the Obama Admin and these Russian figureheads everyone is so bent out of shape about.
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:10 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...9&postcount=51

Is Collusion Illegal? Well, it Depends …

Like what kind it is.

Marketplace collusion between business interests is illegal as it falls under Antitrust laws (competition laws), to protect consumers from shady business practices to ensure competition and fairness. Price-fixing, bribery of a public official are examples of this kind of collusion and this kind is a crime.

This does not apply to political collusion where all political campaigns try to gain an unfair advantage over a competing candidate.



Back-door channels to foreign govts, including one's considered hostile by a president elect's team is not collusion nor illegal. Talking to a foreign govt by a campaign is also not illegal. Heck, candidates have to go visit Bibi in Israel to be vetted. ( I don't agree with it but that's a different matter.)

Obtaining political information about an opponent is also not illegal, nor is filing fake lawsuits to discredit a candidate illegal to then advertise it in the press. The latter may be dirty but it is not illegal.
Trumptard checklist:
  • OK, we know Russia really wanted Trump to become President, but we don't ****ing care. Check
  • What the **** are you talking about? The Trump campaign never, ever, ever had any contact with Russia. Check.
  • OK, they did meet with Russia, but it was about adoptions. Check
  • OK, they lied about that too. It was about "opposition research". But they tricked Trump Jr, Kushner and Manafort, and didn't give them any useful info. See? No collusion! Check
  • OK, the Trump campaign probably did collude with Russia, but, herp, derp, collusion is legal. Check
  • OK, maybe Russia did interfere with our elections, and maybe that's why Trump won. But we still don't ****ing care. Check
  • We welcome Putin as our new overlord. Coming soon.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:12 PM   #82
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
Trumptard checklist:
  • OK, we know Russia really wanted Trump to become President, but we don't ****ing care. Check
  • What the **** are you talking about? The Trump campaign never, ever, ever had any contact with Russia. Check.
  • OK, they did meet with Russia, but it was about adoptions. Check
  • OK, they lied about that too. It was about "opposition research". But they tricked Trump Jr, Kushner and Manafort, and didn't give them any useful info. See? No collusion! Check
  • OK, the Trump campaign probably did collude with Russia, but, herp, derp, collusion is legal. Check
  • OK, maybe Russia did interfere with our elections, and maybe that's why Trump won. But we still don't ****ing care. Check
  • We welcome Putin as our new overlord. Coming soon.
They met with "Russia"? So anyone Russian is now "Russia"? Talk about stretching....

And how did anything Russia may have done cause Trump to win?
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:12 PM   #83
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I don't know what you mean by it's not Trump Jr's call. What call?

Edit: I meant convincing to you (the reader), but if it helps, just ignore the word "convincing".
If you work for a campaign, it's not your call whether or not an attempt by a foreign county to offer assistance to your campaign is something you should report to the FBI. The law appears to be pretty clear about this.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:15 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
If you work for a campaign, it's not your call whether or not an attempt by a foreign county to offer assistance to your campaign is something you should report to the FBI. The law appears to be pretty clear about this.
What Russian government official has contacted the Trump campaign for a meeting?
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:15 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
They met with "Russia"? So anyone Russian is now "Russia"? Talk about stretching....
If you are truly unable to understand the meaning of the word from the context in which it was used, feel free to substitute the word "Russians" for "Russia" in that sentence.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:16 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
What Russian government official has contacted the Trump campaign for a meeting?
Ask Donald Trump Jr. He's the one who accepted the meeting in the belief that he would be getting information that originated from the Russian government.

On second thought, don't ask him. His credibility is not very high at the moment.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:18 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
If you are truly unable to understand the meaning of the word from the context in which it was used, feel free to substitute the word "Russians" for "Russia" in that sentence.
Sorry it doesn't work that way. Trump Jr. met with Russians. To say a person met with "Russia" is to imply they met with someone officially representing the country and government of Russia. I know this fact tends to blow a hole in your rhetorical bullshit but it is what it is.
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Originally Posted by |Zach| View Post
All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:18 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
Ask Donald Trump Jr. He's the one who accepted the meeting in the belief that he would be getting information that originated from the Russian government.

On second thought, don't ask him. His credibility is not very high at the moment.
You were the one who accused him of meeting with "Russia" so back up your accusation.
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:19 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
Ask Donald Trump Jr. He's the one who accepted the meeting in the belief that he would be getting information that originated from the Russian government.

On second thought, don't ask him. His credibility is not very high at the moment.

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Old 07-14-2017, 07:35 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
If you work for a campaign, it's not your call whether or not an attempt by a foreign county to offer assistance to your campaign is something you should report to the FBI. The law appears to be pretty clear about this.
I don't agree with that. Especially the bolded part.
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