Game of Thrones *Spoiler* Thread

[keg in kc]

There's been some recent confusion with the old spoiler thread, so I'm kicking off a new one for tonight's premiere. This is going to be the one for folks who've read all the books. So anything anybody might want to talk about is in bounds. Suffice to say, if you haven't read the books, you'll probably want to stay out of here until you do...

I'll bump the old spoiler-free thread shortly in case anybody's interested. For future reference the link to that one is here

[NewChief]

When you think about it, Joffrey really isn't much different than Bran Stark.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by NewChief

When you think about it, Joffrey really isn't much different than Bran Stark.

psst. Robb.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Beric is the only person we see resurrected the same way, and he can talk, and happens to give a pretty good explanation of it.

Beric: resurrected immediately
Cat: floated down the river for days

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Swanman

Your assertion that Stoneheart is 95% Catelyn is way, way, way off. I would say closer to 5%. It seems all Stoneheart has of Catelyn is a notion of who wronged her family and her only goal is retribution.

Catelyn's resurrection is very different from Beric's because she was dead for probably days before resurrection. Beric was resurrected within minutes each time and even he was slightly different. They basically said in the book that Catelyn was probably too far gone to resurrect but they did it anyway.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think 100% Catelyn's goal would be, knowing that her husband and one son are dead, and thinking that her other two sons and one daughter are dead?

We don't know that the length of time changes anything except physical decay. The only differences we can observe between undead Beric and undead Catelyn are the physical decay, and the inability to speak, which we know is due to injury. Any presumption that her mind has changed more than Beric's is unsupported by the text.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Just out of curiosity, what do you think 100% Catelyn's goal would be, knowing that her husband and one son are dead, and thinking that her other two sons and one daughter are dead?

We don't know that the length of time changes anything except physical decay. The only differences we can observe between undead Beric and undead Catelyn are the physical decay, and the inability to speak, which we know is due to injury. Any presumption that her mind has changed more than Beric's is unsupported by the text.

Catelyn would not have hanged children for being traitors. She also would have heard Brienne out before hanging her.

There is a reason Thoros did not want to resurrect her when they found her body. She was too long dead.

[keg in kc]

All you need to do to differentiate the two is consider how Catelyn handled Jamie after he was captured, and how Cersei handles Tyrion after Joffrey's death. Catelyn treats a man she wants dead probably more than anything at that point with more honor than Cersei grants her own brother. And I think she knows as well as anyone that Tyrion didn't even do it. Which is just one mark on a very, very long list.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Swanman

Catelyn would not have hanged children for being traitors. She also would have heard Brienne out before hanging her.

There is a reason Thoros did not want to resurrect her when they found her body. She was too long dead.

How do you know?

If she was nothing but a murderous zombie, why is the Brotherhood Without Banners allowing her to lead them?

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

All you need to do to differentiate the two is consider how Catelyn handled Jamie after he was captured, and how Cersei handles Tyrion after Joffrey's death. Catelyn treats a man she wants dead probably more than anything at that point with more honor than Cersei grants her own brother. And I think she knows as well as anyone that Tyrion didn't even do it. Which is just one mark on a very, very long list.

Those situations aren't similar. The only Stark that was dead or assumed dead at that point is Ned, and Catelyn knew Jaime had nothing to do with his beheading.

On the other side, Cersei's son just died in her arms, and Tyrion looked very guilty. He had motive, destroyed the evidence, and his wife just happened to disappear at the same time. If you have any evidence that Cersei knew it wasn't Tyrion, I'd love to hear it.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

How do you know?

If she was nothing but a murderous zombie, why is the Brotherhood Without Banners allowing her to lead them?

I would imagine since they still have an allegiance to the Stark and Baratheon families. It's definitely strange that zombie Catelyn is leading them, but loyalty is held very near and dear by some.

[Hawk]

Ha, this is a bit of a ridiculous discussion. Catelyn is dumb, made some bad decisions, and gave some bad advice. The only really bad thing about Catelyn is her treatment of Jon.

The list of bad things Cersei has done is extremely long and way more over the top bad. They are not in any way comparable in terms of who is a worse person. That's just a silly straw argument.

- Cersei killed her own baby fathered by Robert
- She tortured Tyrion as a child
- she murdered her friend when she was young
- she is responsible for having a number of people tortured in awful ways and killed so Qyburn can build robo-Gregor to protect her
- she commits incest with her brother
- she arranged for robert to be killed
- she has an unnatural hatred for Tyrion and not only frames him for murder but tries repeatedly to have him killed.
- she sleeps with her cousin and half the kingsguard
- she falsely accuses Margery
- She tries to have all of Robert's bastards hunted down and slaughtered
- she has Alaya tortured and beaten because she thinks she's Tyrion's whore

Hell, there's probably more than that too. Cersei has no redeeming morals and is purely an evil bitch guided by self-interest and occasionally protecting her kids, and she is just horribly bad at scheming, she even makes Catelyn seem like a political genius by comparison.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by Hawk

.
- she sleeps with her cousin and half the kingsguard

She was ****ing Moonboy for all we know.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Swanman

I would imagine since they still have an allegiance to the Stark and Baratheon families. It's definitely strange that zombie Catelyn is leading them, but loyalty is held very near and dear by some.

It's the Brotherhood Without Banners. Their only loyalty is to the smallfolk. Or, at least it was until Catelyn showed up.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Ha, this is a bit of a ridiculous discussion. Catelyn is dumb, made some bad decisions, and gave some bad advice. The only really bad thing about Catelyn is her treatment of Jon.

The list of bad things Cersei has done is extremely long and way more over the top bad. They are not in any way comparable in terms of who is a worse person. That's just a silly straw argument.

- Cersei killed her own baby fathered by Robert
- She tortured Tyrion as a child
- she murdered her friend when she was young
- she is responsible for having a number of people tortured in awful ways and killed so Qyburn can build robo-Gregor to protect her
- she commits incest with her brother
- she arranged for robert to be killed
- she has an unnatural hatred for Tyrion and not only frames him for murder but tries repeatedly to have him killed.
- she sleeps with her cousin and half the kingsguard
- she falsely accuses Margery
- She tries to have all of Robert's bastards hunted down and slaughtered
- she has Alaya tortured and beaten because she thinks she's Tyrion's whore

Hell, there's probably more than that too. Cersei has no redeeming morals and is purely an evil bitch guided by self-interest and occasionally protecting her kids, and she is just horribly bad at scheming, she even makes Catelyn seem like a political genius by comparison.

I don't disagree that Cersei has done a lot of horrible things, but Catelyn has probably murdered more innocent people.

[MagicHef]

When Brienne was taken by the BWB, Catelyn recognizes her, reads the letter she had on her, sees the sword Jaime had given her, and decides to make Brienne prove that she is not in the service of the Lannisters by bringing her Jaime. That seems to be some very high level thinking for a body that knows nothing but revenge.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

I don't disagree that Cersei has done a lot of horrible things, but Catelyn has probably murdered more innocent people.

Wow. Just wow. You're grasping at straws, and drowning because you can't reach any.

Can you even name one innocent person that Catelyn murdered?