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Old 11-12-2017, 03:46 AM  
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I agree that multiculturalism is a failure, but I don't think we need to divide by ethnic group. We just need to stop fetishizing non-American (especially anti-American) cultures.
A failure?

By what standard are you measuring that? And why do you think we've met that standard?
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:08 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
A failure?

By what standard are you measuring that? And why do you think we've met that standard?
From where I sit, multiculturalism seems to inevitably turn into separatism and grievance mongering.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:11 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
From where I sit, multiculturalism seems to inevitably turn into separatism and grievance mongering.
That's a ridiculously selective way to look at multiculturalism.

I mean, it's like you're looking at it through a toilet paper roll. "There has been intercultural hostility, therefore multiculturalism is a failure."
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:13 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That's a ridiculously selective way to look at multiculturalism.

I mean, it's like you're looking at it through a toilet paper roll. "There has been intercultural hostility, therefore multiculturalism is a failure."
Ok. Why shouldn't we trash it and return to an assimilation model?
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:14 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Ok. Why shouldn't we trash it and return to an assimilation model?
The two are not and have never been mutually exclusive.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:18 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
The two are not and have never been mutually exclusive.
Sorry, life is different in the real world than it is in the thought experiments of the ivory tower.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:18 AM   #37
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I don't see multiculturalism as a failure BUT what I do see is too big negative effects of it due to being poorly practiced: Failed assimilation in many places especially Europe and putting the rights of the incoming far above those who have been around for generations.

They both cause hatred and anger against those who are migrating.

Poland just had a massive 60,000 right wingers march all saying NO MORE MUSLIMS.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:26 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Sorry, life is different in the real world than it is in the thought experiments of the ivory tower.
Nah, I think the "real world" has ridiculous amounts of examples that show the positive impact of multiculturalism.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:27 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by scho63 View Post
I don't see multiculturalism as a failure BUT what I do see is too big negative effects of it due to being poorly practiced: Failed assimilation in many places especially Europe and putting the rights of the incoming far above those who have been around for generations.

They both cause hatred and anger against those who are migrating.

Poland just had a massive 60,000 right wingers march all saying NO MORE MUSLIMS.
I'll disagree that that's what's causing the negative effects, but I do agree with your central thesis here.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:33 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'll disagree that that's what's causing the negative effects, but I do agree with your central thesis here.
Do you feel it's just outright racism?
Fear of the unknown?
Losing identity?
Losing control of their own countries to foreigners?
Too much power for others?
Lack of economic opportunity?
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:39 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by scho63 View Post
Do you feel it's just outright racism?
Fear of the unknown?
Losing identity?
Losing control of their own countries to foreigners?
Too much power for others?
Lack of economic opportunity?
Ha, this is an outstanding list. My answer is yes to most of these.

My honest opinion:

I think any time you have multiple cultures in a country there will be significant movements that resist that from the dominant culture.

Over a long enough period of time, the countries will move to greater and greater multiculturalism -- it's virtually impossible not to in the 21st century and how small technology has made the world.

But for every step forward for multiculturalism (and assimilation, for that matter), a nationalist backlash will follow. That's largely what America is going through right now, even though it's far more muted compared to some of our European brothers and sisters.

I think allowing more and more cultures into your country means you're going to have more more cultures at "the table." The dominant culture will still have an outsized seat at the table, but it will no longer be the only seat at the table, and that loss of absolute control does spook a lot of folks in that dominant culture.

They believe it's all zero sum: opportunities growing for minority cultures means that there will be less opportunities for the dominant culture. And that is why immigration and empowered minorities are so frightening to them.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:47 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Ha, this is an outstanding list. My answer is yes to most of these.

My honest opinion:

I think any time you have multiple cultures in a country there will be significant movements that resist that from the dominant culture.

Over a long enough period of time, the countries will move to greater and greater multiculturalism -- it's virtually impossible not to in the 21st century and how small technology has made the world.

But for every step forward for multiculturalism (and assimilation, for that matter), a nationalist backlash will follow. That's largely what America is going through right now, even though it's far more muted compared to some of our European brothers and sisters.

I think allowing more and more cultures into your country means you're going to have more more cultures at "the table." The dominant culture will still have an outsized seat at the table, but it will no longer be the only seat at the table, and that loss of absolute control does spook a lot of folks in that dominant culture.

They believe it's all zero sum: opportunities growing for minority cultures means that there will be less opportunities for the dominant culture. And that is why immigration and empowered minorities are so frightening to them.
I'm going to disagree 100% on that is what America is going through right now. America's big fight is ILLEGAL vs LEGAL immigration and the fact that the left has slowly changed the name from ILLEGAL ALIEN to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT to UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT.

Add to that the fact that the left's big priority is sanctuary cities and that is what this fight is all about.

The left and the media use the words racists, anti-immigrant and other highly charged words to help their cause.

If Democrats gain full control of our government, the VERY FIRST THING they are going to do is grant amnesty to all illegals and make them citizens.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:53 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by scho63 View Post
I'm going to disagree 100% on that is what America is going through right now. America's big fight is ILLEGAL vs LEGAL immigration and the fact that the left has slowly changed the name from ILLEGAL ALIEN to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT to UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT.

Add to that the fact that the left's big priority is sanctuary cities and that is what this fight is all about.

The left and the media use the words racists, anti-immigrant and other highly charged words to help their cause.

If Democrats gain full control of our government, the VERY FIRST THING they are going to do is grant amnesty to all illegals and make them citizens.
They'd need 60 seats in the Senate to do that, so they'd need more than full control. They'd need a supermajority in the Senate.

But this is what I'm talking about. Why are we worried about granting these people a path to citizenship?

Not because they "broke the law," because Trump's own wife broke immigration law and nobody cares.

We care because they're brown, they're another culture, and once we allow them to get a foothold into America (which they already have), they will get more and more opportunity, which will take opportunity away from the dominant "white culture," so to speak.

I'd like to disabuse you of that: immigrants (even undocumented ones) make America more prosperous, not less. It is not zero sum.

The belief that the economy is zero sum is what drives the paranoia against "disease-carrying rapists flooding our southern borders and robbing America of its sovereignty!!!"

It's just not the case. The economy is not zero sum.
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Ha, this is an outstanding list. My answer is yes to most of these.

My honest opinion:

I think any time you have multiple cultures in a country there will be significant movements that resist that from the dominant culture.

Over a long enough period of time, the countries will move to greater and greater multiculturalism -- it's virtually impossible not to in the 21st century and how small technology has made the world.

But for every step forward for multiculturalism (and assimilation, for that matter), a nationalist backlash will follow. That's largely what America is going through right now, even though it's far more muted compared to some of our European brothers and sisters.

I think allowing more and more cultures into your country means you're going to have more more cultures at "the table." The dominant culture will still have an outsized seat at the table, but it will no longer be the only seat at the table, and that loss of absolute control does spook a lot of folks in that dominant culture.

They believe it's all zero sum: opportunities growing for minority cultures means that there will be less opportunities for the dominant culture. And that is why immigration and empowered minorities are so frightening to them.
What's so great about cultural Balkanization?
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:02 PM   #45
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What's so great about cultural Balkanization?
Explain what you mean, please.
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