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Old 05-24-2009, 09:15 PM  
memyselfI memyselfI is offline
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Rachel Madcow is, well, mad...at Obummer.

Finally, Libs are starting to wake the fugg up. Not on this board, of course, but in the real world.

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Old 05-28-2009, 03:01 PM   #106
Calcountry Calcountry is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Our existence has been a recruiting tool for al Qaeda. Should we abolish that too?
I was trying to say that in my previous post. What was the recruiting tool on all those attacks that occurred prior to Gitmo?

Don't answer the question BRC, just throw your straw man back at me.

BTW, what the fug is BO gonna do with them? HE is making them a recruitment tool now, the tool.

The tool doesn't know that the more he bitches about Bush, the more he bitches against his own country.

It is kind of like saying your wife is a dumb bi*ch to your friends with your wife present.

You're the president now foo. President of WHAT country? Oh yeah, THAT country that you love so much that you want to fug it up beyond all recognition AND apologize for its existence to anyone who will lend you an ear.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:12 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Our existence has been a recruiting tool for al Qaeda. Should we abolish that too?
That's just not even true.

The recruiting tool was permanent bases left on Muslim Holy Lands after PGWI. Well, at least it was what broke the camel's back. That and the increasing build-up of bases post PGWI during the 1990's.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:28 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That's just not even true.

The recruiting tool was permanent bases left on Muslim Holy Lands after PGWI. Well, at least it was what broke the camel's back. That and the increasing build-up of bases post PGWI during the 1990's.
Who recruited the Muslims up in New York the other day?

I'm like, they were so bent because we have bases in Holy lands.

They sure didn't mind us coming over there to save their asses from Sadaam though, did they?
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:33 PM   #109
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Sorry I say it's blowback... even Scheuer former head of binLaden unit in the CIA who knows them well and who is not anti war says similarly.

They don't hate us for who we are, they hate us for our govts' ME policies on their land. As a matter of fact, I hate what our govt's doing on our land too. Seems like natural allies.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:34 PM   #110
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As POW's we should just hold them until the war is over. Now, probably would have been a good idea to actually go about declaring war....

Once the war is over let their home countries deal with them. I don't want these guys anywhere near US soil.
Sounds good to me. There's benefits for us in a formal declare.It also provides window of time to end it too. Not to mention clearly defining the enemy helps in winning a war. Notice we won those but not all the non-declared ones.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:41 PM   #111
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Even right ibertarians are calling Obama out too!

He mentions Rachael here.

Quote:
Obama’s Democratic Authoritarianism
He's bad – really bad – on civil liberties

by Justin Raimondo


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He's not closing Guantanamo, he's continuing the "preventive detention" policy of the Bush administration under a new rubric ("prolonged detention"), he's on board with military commissions ("reformed," of course) and the denial of habeas corpus – and last, but certainly not least, his supporters in Congress have launched a campaign to give him and his cabinet officials the power to close down the Internet in the name of "national security."

I won't go on at length about the brazen hypocrisy and general slipperiness exhibited by Obama and his fans when it comes to key civil liberties issues such as these. Jack Goldsmith, former head of George W. Bush's Office of Legal Counsel, and Rachel Maddow, progressive commentator on MSNBC, have done a superlative job of that. Goldsmith, of course, notes the president's turn on a dime with obvious approval, arguing that the Bush approach was haphazard and lacked any substantive legal basis, while Maddow is horrified that, instead of abolishing these Bush-era assaults on the Constitution, her former hero is intent on formalizing and "legalizing" them. Go here to see her deliver the kind of stinging rebuke to Obama and his administration that Rush Limbaugh and his fellow radio ranters could never hope to match.

Maddow strikes a powerful blow against Cheneyism-without-Cheney [LOL]by pointing out that the president's preventive detention policy – which claims for the U.S. government the right to hold anyone, including American citizens, indefinitely, without trial, without formal charges, and without telling anyone – is worse than anything Bush ever attempted in one important sense. The Bushian effort was secretive and strictly ad hoc; the Obamaites, however, are quite openly constructing what Obama calls "a new legal regime" to preside over this wholesale assault on the Constitution.

At least the Bush crowd had enough remnants of a moral sense to sneak around and try [.pdf] to hide their crimes against liberty and the rule of law. Although they tried to rationalize their actions with after-the-fact legal arguments, the effort seems to me rather halfhearted: they weren't really all that concerned with legalizing their power grab. They just went ahead and did it, and damn the torpedoes.

The Obamaites, on the other hand, have a different style – but the substance is essentially the same, with the addition of a few minor tweaks and rhetorical flourishes. They want to bureaucratize and institutionalize the horrors of the past eight years and make what used to be unthinkable routine.
It was Obama's cave-ins on civil liberties that prevented me from voting for him and tap dancing rhetoric on Iraq ( language to keep us there). I knew MacCain wouldn't be different. Now he's even worse....as he and the D congress act like dictators doing what Gingrich essentially called for: shutting down the internet. ( paraphrased)
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:34 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Calcountry View Post
The tool doesn't know that the more he bitches about Bush, the more he bitches against his own country.

It is kind of like saying your wife is a dumb bi*ch to your friends with your wife present.

You're the president now foo. President of WHAT country? Oh yeah, THAT country that you love so much that you want to fug it up beyond all recognition AND apologize for its existence to anyone who will lend you an ear.
This deserved repeating, IMO. After a while, your friends are going to be convinced that your wife really is a dumb bitch.
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:38 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That's just not even true.

The recruiting tool was permanent bases left on Muslim Holy Lands after PGWI. Well, at least it was what broke the camel's back. That and the increasing build-up of bases post PGWI during the 1990's.
Sorry Buc, but it is true. It's not just the military bases. It's also our economic and cultural relationships. It's our oil companies working in that region. Our values (especially such values as consumerism and tolerance of what they see as vice) infecting their region. It's us being us and interacting with their countries in the same way we interact with the rest of the world.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:54 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Sorry Buc, but it is true. It's not just the military bases. It's also our economic and cultural relationships. It's our oil companies working in that region. Our values (especially such values as consumerism and tolerance of what they see as vice) infecting their region. It's us being us and interacting with their countries in the same way we interact with the rest of the world.
Nope...this is denial and a refusal to look at some of our policies. Refusal to read the surveys that show they admire our institutions like rep govt at 80%'ish—but this drops when it comes to our policies there. I will admit that the consumerism as well as western smut and secular values is another one...but it's still comes down to what we do, because they know their govts are paid puppets of the US and they have little say in getting rid of those things which they have a right to do. The best way to determine if something is wrong or just a bad policy is to see if you'd like it if you were in their shoes. Would you like China to have permanent bases here in America? I know I wouldn't.

Get out of the ME and leave them alone.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:26 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Nope...this is denial and a refusal to look at some of our policies. Refusal to read the surveys that show they admire our institutions like rep govt at 80%'ish—but this drops when it comes to our policies there. I will admit that the consumerism as well as western smut and secular values is another one...but it's still comes down to what we do, because they know their govts are paid puppets of the US and they have little say in getting rid of those things which they have a right to do. The best way to determine if something is wrong or just a bad policy is to see if you'd like it if you were in their shoes. Would you like China to have permanent bases here in America? I know I wouldn't.

Get out of the ME and leave them alone.
You're deluding yourself. They don't just want our military out of the middle east, they want *US* out including our economic presence.* I'm sure there are a lot of middle easterners, probably even a majority of them, who welcome some or possibly even most aspects of western influence and the benefits of our economic relationship, but the jihadists are the people we're talking about, not the general population reflected in your survey.

*Osama bin Laden, in particular, derives a great deal of antipathy for the west from the fact that western oil companies have made a lot of money for themselves and for the Saudi elite who brought them in. He thinks Saudi Arabia's valuable oil resources are being stolen from the Saudi people.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:37 AM   #116
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I'm not interested in arguing this same topic endlessly with you pat. If you want to believe the state, as a proclaimed libertarian, then go ahead and do it. But the state has a vested interest in using rhetoric to justify war. You and I are NEVER going to agree on this.

BTW it's true in personal life too. Tit for tat just keeps a feud going. Take a look at it.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:59 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I'm not interested in arguing this same topic endlessly with you pat. If you want to believe the state, as a proclaimed libertarian, then go ahead and do it. But the state has a vested interest in using rhetoric to justify war. You and I are NEVER going to agree on this.

BTW it's true in personal life too. Tit for tat just keeps a feud going. Take a look at it.
I'm just telling you what I've read from people like Michael Scheuer. He worked for the government though so I guess he's the "state" in that sense.
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