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Old 01-27-2010, 12:12 PM  
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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New Apple Tablet

Cool stuff. On Engadget live right now

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/27/l...est&refresh=30

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Old 03-04-2014, 03:19 PM   #2116
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I LOVE how you think you can call me a liar and then just move on. That's a dirtbag move on your part and you know it. Care to retract that?

As for burden of proof.. why is it on ME? You have yet to show any number that include white label shipments. So why don't YOU show some proof?

I'll have no problem if you can show the data that includes white label shipments. (not just China but India, Malaysia and Korea.. Korea may be included in Digitimes data but I'm fairly certain India is not, no clue on Malaysia)
I never called you a liar, I said your data doesn't exist. So far that has proven completely true.

The burden of proof is on you because at no time has Apple been anywhere close to under 15% market share. Everyone knows that. The ball started in my court with Apple owning over 1/2 the market share. Gartner's data shows that. Gartner even lists OTHER, which covers white box shipments. That's the entire point of "OTHER".

IDC also shows the same: http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24420613

They also list OTHER.

That's 2 independent sources that clearly show Apple is nowhere close to being under 15%, which includes OTHER categories that cover white box.

There's my proof. And you still can't find any source at all that shows Apple being under 15%.

Do the right thing. Honor your bet.
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Old 03-04-2014, 03:27 PM   #2117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
I never called you a liar, I said your data doesn't exist. So far that has proven completely true.

The burden of proof is on you because at no time has Apple been anywhere close to under 15% market share. Everyone knows that. The ball started in my court with Apple owning over 1/2 the market share. Gartner's data shows that. Gartner even lists OTHER, which covers white box shipments. That's the entire point of "OTHER".

IDC also shows the same: http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24420613

They also list OTHER.

That's 2 independent sources that clearly show Apple is nowhere close to being under 15%, which includes OTHER categories that cover white box.

There's my proof. And you still can't find any source at all that shows Apple being under 15%.

Do the right thing. Honor your bet.
Other does NOT include white box. I showed you this earlier in the thread. I also showed you earlier that IDC data has the same problem with only counting branded tablets. Go back through the thread and you can see where the few times I had access to white box data it directly contradicts the IDC reports of the time.

So you have nothing even close to proof and you should know that.

And saying the data I gave you doesn't exist is calling me a liar. Just because I'm not willing to pay $2k for you to see the data doesn't "prove" it doesn't exist. That's idiotic. I told you that there were 91 million Chinese white label shipments (I may be off by .6 on that one) last year and you claimed that the number doesn't exist. That's calling me a liar. Like I said, do you care to retract that? If not, fine, we'll assume you are saying I am lying about that figure.
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Old 03-04-2014, 03:54 PM   #2118
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Other does NOT include white box. I showed you this earlier in the thread. I also showed you earlier that IDC data has the same problem with only counting branded tablets. Go back through the thread and you can see where the few times I had access to white box data it directly contradicts the IDC reports of the time.

So you have nothing even close to proof and you should know that.

And saying the data I gave you doesn't exist is calling me a liar. Just because I'm not willing to pay $2k for you to see the data doesn't "prove" it doesn't exist. That's idiotic. I told you that there were 91 million Chinese white label shipments (I may be off by .6 on that one) last year and you claimed that the number doesn't exist. That's calling me a liar. Like I said, do you care to retract that? If not, fine, we'll assume you are saying I am lying about that figure.
Of course OTHER includes white box. You've never shown otherwise. Please point out where you have other than your own claim. Your entire argument hinges on that, but you have no data to show for it. If you can't show it, then we have to assume it doesn't exist.

If you're claiming that the data from IDC is incorrect, and the data from Gartner is incorrect, then it's your responsibility to prove that data is incorrect. You're the only one claiming their data is wrong.

Show me, or I expect you to pay up your bet.
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:03 PM   #2119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Of course OTHER includes white box. You've never shown otherwise. Please point out where you have other than your own claim. Your entire argument hinges on that, but you have no data to show for it. If you can't show it, then we have to assume it doesn't exist.

If you're claiming that the data from IDC is incorrect, and the data from Gartner is incorrect, then it's your responsibility to prove that data is incorrect. You're the only one claiming their data is wrong.

Show me, or I expect you to pay up your bet.
I've shown it earlier in this very thread and you even acknowledged it. Search the thread, it's there. I feel ZERO motivation to show you something I have already shown you.. especially after you've been a complete asshole. Do your own work ****stick.

EDIT: and I'm not claiming the data is INCORRECT just incomplete and doesn't fit the parameters of our bet. OTHER in the IDC report is for the Kindle Fire, Google Nexus etc.. This is not anything new.. it has been discussed NUMEROUS times in the thread... it's pretty outrageous for you to pretend it hasn't now.

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Old 03-04-2014, 04:12 PM   #2120
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I've shown it earlier in this very thread and you even acknowledged it. Search the thread, it's there. I feel ZERO motivation to show you something I have already shown you.. especially after you've been a complete asshole. Do your own work ****stick.
It's not my responsibility. I've held up my end of the bet. I bet that Apple wouldn't be below 15% in the tablet market. I have Gartner data that supports that claim, and does so by a huge margin that even your white box claims can't overcome. I have IDC data that supports that claim, and also does so by a huge margin.

You've not put forth any data that shows anything to the contrary. Only claims of mysterious white boxes that you can't seem to find any proof of anymore.

Don't be a bet welcher. I thought you had more dignity than that.
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:29 PM   #2121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
It's not my responsibility. I've held up my end of the bet. I bet that Apple wouldn't be below 15% in the tablet market. I have Gartner data that supports that claim, and does so by a huge margin that even your white box claims can't overcome. I have IDC data that supports that claim, and also does so by a huge margin.

You've not put forth any data that shows anything to the contrary. Only claims of mysterious white boxes that you can't seem to find any proof of anymore.

Don't be a bet welcher. I thought you had more dignity than that.
Dude you are being a completely delusional asshat. I have shown you numerous times throughout this thread that the IDC data doesn't include white box shipments and that would be key to the whole thing. We discussed all of this in a civil manner earlier yet now you pretend as if you have suddenly forgotten all of that. Don't talk to ME about dignity.. you are behaving like a complete dirtbag.. first by claiming I made up the white box figure I gave you then by conveniently "forgetting" the data that showed that IDC (and others) obviously don't use whitebox figures in their reports.

Are you trying to pander to the people who haven't followed this thread close enough? Or do you honestly believe the bullshit you are trying to shovel?
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:44 PM   #2122
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Dude you are being a completely delusional asshat. I have shown you numerous times throughout this thread that the IDC data doesn't include white box shipments and that would be key to the whole thing. We discussed all of this in a civil manner earlier yet now you pretend as if you have suddenly forgotten all of that. Don't talk to ME about dignity.. you are behaving like a complete dirtbag.. first by claiming I made up the white box figure I gave you then by conveniently "forgetting" the data that showed that IDC (and others) obviously don't use whitebox figures in their reports.

Are you trying to pander to the people who haven't followed this thread close enough? Or do you honestly believe the bullshit you are trying to shovel?
I've brought this up multiple times since the bet ended so long ago. Each time you said you were going to find that data that shows you're right. That has never come, and it doesn't appear that you have any intention of trying to provide it. In post #2031, I addressed your digitimes source regarding white box tablets. It specifically says it's numbers include white box tablets. Here's the quote:

Quote:
Apple will retain the top spot, with its share of branded tablet shipments declining slightly to 55.6%. Factoring in white box tablets, Apple's share of all tablet shipments will drop below 40%.

The explosion in white box tablet shipments in 2012 means that Android will overtake iOS to become the largest platform in 2012. Combined shipments of all Android tablets - including branded, white box, Amazon and Barnes & Noble devices - are projected to hit 121 million units in 2013, representing 40.2% growth on 2012 figures.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20121...00.html?chid=2
Apple is still way above the 15% cutoff for our bet.

You've had way over a year to address any of these issues. My patience has expired.

It's time to pay up. This has gone on long enough, and you've made no attempt to resolve this. I have data that shows you are wrong. You have no data that shows you are correct. Please make arrangements for my tablet.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:19 PM   #2123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Apple is still way above the 15% cutoff for our bet.

You've had way over a year to address any of these issues. My patience has expired.

It's time to pay up. This has gone on long enough, and you've made no attempt to resolve this. I have data that shows you are wrong. You have no data that shows you are correct. Please make arrangements for my tablet.
I could care less about your patience. I have attempted to get accurate white box figures but without paying for them I haven't found a source. Of course you also have "made no attempt" to show any accurate data.

I will admit that the Digitimes ABSTRACT you posted is the closest thing we have at the moment to anything resembling accurate info but unfortunately if you click the link you will notice that the full figures are not available unless you pay $1685 for them.

According to that report.. Just Android tablets was 87 million in 2012. Apple sold what 65 million in 2012? Add in Windows tablets and you are well below the "projected" sub-40% number given past data already. This proves that the IDC is way off...and it doesn't give you any proof since whoever wrote the abstract is projecting a number that very clearly already had been passed... making it imperative to look at the actual numbers.

This is why I stated THEN and numerous times before that we need to see real numbers that include ALL the tablets. You seemed fine with that originally, going so far as to say that you thought the bet would be close-ish and that we would need to find numbers/sources to agree on.

BTW: Gartner claimed that Android sales were 53.3 million in 2012... so yet again more proof they DO NOT count white box shipments in their figures.

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Old 03-04-2014, 06:07 PM   #2124
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I could care less about your patience. I have attempted to get accurate white box figures but without paying for them I haven't found a source. Of course you also have "made no attempt" to show any accurate data.

I will admit that the Digitimes ABSTRACT you posted is the closest thing we have at the moment to anything resembling accurate info but unfortunately if you click the link you will notice that the full figures are not available unless you pay $1685 for them.

According to that report.. Just Android tablets was 87 million in 2012. Apple sold what 65 million in 2012? Add in Windows tablets and you are well below the "projected" sub-40% number given past data already. This proves that the IDC is way off...and it doesn't give you any proof since whoever wrote the abstract is projecting a number that very clearly already had been passed... making it imperative to look at the actual numbers.

This is why I stated THEN and numerous times before that we need to see real numbers that include ALL the tablets. You seemed fine with that originally, going so far as to say that you thought the bet would be close-ish and that we would need to find numbers/sources to agree on.

BTW: Gartner claimed that Android sales were 53.3 million in 2012... so yet again more proof they DO NOT count white box shipments in their figures.
Gartner absolutely does include white box sales.

Here's an article from Digitimes regarding Gartner's 2014 numbers including white box tablets:

Quote:
In 2013, the share of Apple's iOS dropped 16.8pp as the market demand was driven by the improved quality of smaller low-cost tablets from branded vendors, and white-box products continued to grow in emerging markets, Gartner noted.

[..]

The tablet market has become a challenging environment for branded hardware-driven players. They are squeezed by service-driven and content-driven players, and aggressive prices from white-box vendors. In addition, a situation where the top two tablet vendors have captured 55% of the market in 2013 compounds the challenge.

From a vendor perspective, Apple's strong fourth quarter helped it to maintain the top position in the market in 2013, according to Gartner. Samsung, ranked No. 2, exhibited the highest growth of the worldwide tablet vendors, at 336%, in 2013.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20140304PR200.html


Just what do you think those 60 million OTHER units are for ****'s sake?

The white box units are included, and you owe me a tablet.
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:14 PM   #2125
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Is this a hill worth dying on?
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:21 PM   #2126
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Just what do you think those 60 million OTHER units are for ****'s sake?

The white box units are included, and you owe me a tablet.
Holy crap you are bad at math. Ok so Digitimes says there were 87 million androids shipped in 2012. The table you posted says there were 61 million ipads shipped. 87+61=148 not 116. AND that doesn't even account for NON-Android tablets (Win7/RT/8 etc) So if Gartner is accounting for white box how do you explain the massive discrepancy?

The quote you posted only shows that Gartner recognizes the white box segment it in no way say they include it in their data.. and obviously they don't since the numbers very clearly don't add up.

And the 60 million OTHER units are other branded tablets not in the list... you know like Google, Dell, Sony, ACER, Archos, etc...
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:23 PM   #2127
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lol


So predictable.
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:24 PM   #2128
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Is this a hill worth dying on?
I might just send him a tablet to shut him up but in no way will I concede the bet until I see real numbers especially after he called me a liar earlier. **** that. The problem is that he is being a complete prick and trying to change the parameters after the fact. I'm guessing he just really needs a tablet right now or is on the rag.
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:27 PM   #2129
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lol


So predictable.
And you can **** yourself as well. This isn't "lawyering" these are the actual NUMBERS. Would you concede a bet based on something you very clearly discussed earlier as not a valid metric? Go back through the thread and you'll see I made this clear all along.

I may very well have lost the bet, I don't have access to anything but snippets of the actual data... but Fish doesn't either and is now being a disingenuous prick trying to pretend we haven't gone over this ground from the onset.
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:36 PM   #2130
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Holy crap you are bad at math. Ok so Digitimes says there were 87 million androids shipped in 2012. The table you posted says there were 61 million ipads shipped. 87+61=148 not 116. AND that doesn't even account for NON-Android tablets (Win7/RT/8 etc) So if Gartner is accounting for white box how do you explain the massive discrepancy?

The quote you posted only shows that Gartner recognizes the white box segment it in no way say they include it in their data.. and obviously they don't since the numbers very clearly don't add up.

And the 60 million OTHER units are other branded tablets not in the list... you know like Google, Dell, Sony, ACER, Archos, etc...
Then just show me a reference that supports your numbers. I've put forth multiple references to support my claim. You've claimed they're inaccurate dozens of different ways. But what you haven't been able to do is show anything concrete that disproves the numbers or supports Apple's market share ever being close to below 15%. Or even 25%.

Forgive me if I don't take your word over the widely used data from several different global technology market organizations.
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