***OFFICIAL*** 2013 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

From Bernie's column:

People have asked me why we’re not more emotional,” Matheny said in his office after Sunday’s game. “They say that we look subdued, always intense. That our actions are methodical, robotic at times. That’s what got us here. This isn’t the time to change it.”

It’s hard to argue with the manager’s assessment. The Cardinals finished with 97 victories, most by a Cards team since 2005, and tied with Boston for No. 1 in the majors this year.


Their 54-27 showing at Busch Stadium matches the 1985 team for the best single-season home winning percentage (.667) by the Cardinals since 1944.

A postseason theme has emerged, and it echoes the mantra that surfaced before the start of 2013: remember the fall of 2012. Remember falling to San Francisco in the NLCS.


The Cardinals’ veterans still haven’t forgotten. They still aren’t over it. It’s why Matheny resists GM John Mozeliak’s urgings to smile and put on a happier face.


Here's the most impressive aspect of the Cardinals' division championship: they prevailed over two other outstanding teams, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.



The 97-win Cardinals were better this year (regular season) than they were in 2011, when they won 90 games, and 2012, when they won 88.
Here are a few numbers that help put the Cardinals' Central title and No. 1 NL seed in perspective:



* Since MLB switched to a three-division format in each league in 1994, this was only the sixth time that a division had three 90-plus win teams. St. Louis won 97, Pittsburgh 94, and Cincinnati 90.
* Since the format change, this was only the second time that an NL division had three 90-win teams. In 2002 the NL West had Arizona (98 wins), San Francisco (95) and Los Angeles (92).
* The 2013 Cardinals faced more esteemed and difficult competition at the top of the division than any of the division-winning teams managed by Tony La Russa.

The Pirates were hardly pushovers; the Cardinals had to work like mad and kick in with a strong finish to put the division away, and didn't clinch until Game No. 160.



The Cardinals went 9-10 against Pittsburgh this season and were 11-8 vs. Cincinnati.


The Cardinals won only three of 10 games at PNC Park in Pittsburgh and split the 10 games at Cincinnati. The Cardinals were 6-3 against both teams at Busch Stadium.


The Cardinals (1st), Pirates (3rd) and Reds (5th) ranked among the top five in wins in the NL. The three teams were among the top 11 in wins in MLB. All three teams finished in the top five in the majors for best overall ERA, and each were in the top five MLB for best starting-pitching ERA.


The original purpose to this piece was to point out that the Cardinals managed to finish with the league's best record while competing in a division that had three 90-win teams for only the second time in the last 19 years of National League baseball.



The Cardinals really earned this.
Thanks for reading ...
— Bernie

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The Cardinals had 5 extra base hits plus 5 walk yesterday; essentially 10 instances of 'free' bases.

The Royals had 2 - 1 double and 1 HBP.

That was the difference in the ballgame - banjo hitters that won't take walks simply won't win anything...ever. It's just out of date thinking; they've built a dead-ball era squad with no speed to supplement it.

I don't get it at all.

Part of the issue is the extreme lack of power.

Royals hitters don't hit for much power, so why NOT challenge them even when behind in the count.

[Pepe Silvia]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Fantastic!

I'm okay with the move. Let the FA clock start ticking on all the stud young pitchers.

We have six years for all these guys. So what they all go to FA at the same time. Thats a damn good window. And we got 6 years to find the next ones.

Miller
Martinez
Rosenthal
Wacha

Waino's contract will be up by then and we will be able to keep one. Who knows if they will all remain healthy? We got a good chance of winning another WS trophy this year.

But I thought we don't develop all our own players?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

Part of the issue is the extreme lack of power.

Royals hitters don't hit for much power, so why NOT challenge them even when behind in the count.

True, but are you really gonna tell me that Hosmer, Gordon, Moustakas and Butler don't have more power than Matt Carpenter?

And Carpenter will simply outwork pitchers into drawing walks.

And like I said in the other thread - the Cardinals are 27th in baseball in HRs on their own. They're in the bottom 1/3 in slugging%. But they're among the best in baseball at drawing walks.

The Cardinals have very few players that will give away ABs, the Royals lineup is mostly comprised of precisely that.

[Titty Meat]

St. Louis is a shithole of a city

[Al Bundy]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

True, but are you really gonna tell me that Hosmer, Gordon, Moustakas and Butler don't have more power than Matt Carpenter?

And Carpenter will simply outwork pitchers into drawing walks.

And like I said in the other thread - the Cardinals are 27th in baseball in HRs on their own. They're in the bottom 1/3 in slugging%. But they're among the best in baseball at drawing walks.

The Cardinals have very few players that will give away ABs, the Royals lineup is mostly comprised of precisely that.

That is the problem 100%. Not only do the Royals have zero pop, they literally NEVER make the pitchers pay for their mistakes.

[Al Bundy]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

I will never understand why certain teams and players don't get the value of a walk. It just baffles me.

It baffles us, too.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Must be infuriating to see Allen Craig rake while their high end prospects flounder

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

True, but are you really gonna tell me that Hosmer, Gordon, Moustakas and Butler don't have more power than Matt Carpenter?

And Carpenter will simply outwork pitchers into drawing walks.

And like I said in the other thread - the Cardinals are 27th in baseball in HRs on their own. They're in the bottom 1/3 in slugging%. But they're among the best in baseball at drawing walks.

The Cardinals have very few players that will give away ABs, the Royals lineup is mostly comprised of precisely that.

They do have more raw power.

I can't tell you the number of cookies I've seen Hosmer, Moustakas, Francoeur, Getz, Johnson and Escobar just miss.

You can throw most of those guys an average to fringe-average fastball over the heart of the plate, and right now the worst thing you're going to see is a single, probably to the opposite field.

It's probably the most frustrating thing I've ever watched happen as a baseball fan.

Let me clarify my in-and-out statement from yesterday, though: I wasn't placing the lack of walks ALL on the lack of power. A big part of it is the approach, and it's clear the organization doesn't focus on preaching patience. A couple of guys - Butler and Gordon - do a nice job taking walks when given the opportunity.

Just another thing about Moore's minor league operation that is clearly broken.

[duncan_idaho]

All right, Chiefsplanet Cardinals fans. I respect the opinions of this contingent of Cardinals fans. Lot of good, hardcore baseball minds in the room (Or thread, whatever).

I have recently seen Cardinals fans on another message board freak the f*** out on a few things and want to get this group's take.

1) Would Alex Gordon start for the Cardinals? This was a very hotly contested point. I'm not sure what team or fanbase WOULDN'T want to find a spot for a guy on pace to hit .330/.370/.500, with 100 R and 100 RBI in a shit-tastic lineup, but apparently the group of Cards fans I was talking to would not. I pointed out Gordon's positional versatility - his ability to play LF, RF or 3B - and that he has been one of the best all-around players in baseball over the past 2.25 seasons.

The debate quickly turned into Holliday vs Gordon, though. (I know where Frazod would weigh in). Even there, the (factual) statement that the gap offensively has closed greatly as Gordon began to figure things out and as Holliday started to decline seemed to insult many, who wanted to point to career stats as the reason Holliday would start NOW.

Thoughts?

2) Wainwright and Shields. This one is fresh. Cardinals fans were talking about Wainwright being "obviously" head and shoulders above Shields. When recent performances - again, each guy's past three years, not a one-year sample size - were compared and it was pointed out that they have been nearly identical pitchers, people flipped out.

Is the suggestion that James Shields and Adam Wainwright are both top 20 pitchers, slotting somewhere in the tier below the Verlander/Kershaw/King Felix/etc. elite group really that crazy or insulting?

3) Billy Butler has a shot at 3000 hits. Someone commented they were shocked Butler already had 1000 MLB hits. Someone else said he had a shot at 3000 hits. Outrage ensued. Being honest, I think we can all say it's unlikely Butler ages extremely well. But he also has been an incredibly durable player and consistent hitter. He would need 12 more seasons in which he averages 167 hits to get to the mark (or about 11 more at his current career hits average). The odds are not great - mostly because that would mean Butler would have to play without injury and at a similarly high level well into his mid-to-late 30s - but there is a SHOT.

There have been a few more (there was an uproar when someone said a year or so ago that they hoped Sal Perez could be as good as Molina, that I still don't get), but those are the main ones.

Interested in reactions of Cardinals fans I know and respect. Thanks, guys.

[Frazod]

I'm okay with Holliday. I mean, I'm never going to rush out and buy a Holliday jersey, but he's our No. 1 guy, like it or not. I just hope he's still useful in October.

[whoman69]

Right now the top three records in baseball are all in the NL Central led by the Cardinals. St. Louis is on pace for a franchise record 108 wins.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

Originally Posted by whoman69

Right now the top three records in baseball are all in the NL Central led by the Cardinals. St. Louis is on pace for a franchise record 108 wins.

When you have the Cubs and Brewers in the central this happens.

[ShowtimeSBMVP]

This is why Interleague rivalries are dumb. 4 games Cards vs Royals , Pirates vs Tigers , Reds vs Indians. These 4 games could cost the Reds and Pirates, While the Cards get 4 easy wins.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Originally Posted by ChiefsandO'sfan

When you have the Cubs and Brewers in the central this happens.

But alas, no more Astros.

[DJ's left nut]

1) Would Alex Gordon start for the Cardinals?

I think you'd have to find a place for him, but really - Holliday's not going anywhere. A) He just flat makes too much money. But really, it's more than that. He's a damn gutty player and I think he's a good 'complementary' leader. He's a guy that is a great 'leader by example'. I think you need vocal leaders as well, but Holliday's been a winning ballplayer his whole career and I do think the young players on this roster respect the hell out of him and how he approaches the game.

Gordon can't really play CF and Beltran can't either. In 2014 you'd have an easy answer - Beltran walks, Gordon plays RF and Taveras gets wedged into CF. In 2013, however, I'd rather have Beltran. You forget how nice it is to have a switch hitter in the center of your lineup until you have one. Apart from that, Beltran's just a timely HR machine. I like Gordon a lot and ultimately Beltran will have a streak where he's completely lost at some point this year, but Beltran's ability to switch hit combined with his HR pop gives him the edge, IMO. And while Gordon's not had a chance to prove it, I think it's extremely unlikely that he proves himself to be the post-season player that Beltran has shown to be.

But if you truly believe he's capable of playing 3b - there's your answer. I'd play him ahead of Freese all day, every day. He's simply a better player.

2) Wainwright and Shields.

Sorry, gonna have to agree with the other Cards fans here, but only because I think Wainwright was criminally underrated in 2009 and 2010. A Gold Glove winner, back to back top 3 finishes in the CY voting. 200+ Ks, leading the league in IPs while putting up an ERA+ of 155 and 160. That Adam Wainwright wasn't a tier below anyone. He didn't throw as hard as some of the guys you mentioned, but he was every bit as effective as Kershaw, Felix and essentially anyone else (Verlander's absurd year notwithstanding). No, Adam Wainwright was not a 2nd tier ace in 2009 or 2010 - he was as good as anyone there was.

This year he looks more like that Wainwright than the 2012 model. He's also a guy that's shown the stones to strike out one of the greatest post-season hitters in history in a Game 7 on the road with the winning run on base.

Ultimately, prior to this season, Shields has had only 1 truly great year. And yeah, 2011 was a remarkable season for him, but I don't think it was better than Wainwright's 2009 and it certainly wasn't better than his 2010. And if he's truly back to that form, and it looks like he might be, he's simply a little better pitcher than Shields with a better resume.

3) Billy Butler has a shot at 3000 hits.

Here's the problem, I once had this exact same discussion regarding Edgar Renteria. At the same age Billy Butler is now, Edgar had nearly 1,500 hits and had just come off the most productive 3 years of his career. He was a lynchpin hitter for a 105 win ballclub and looked for all the world like a guy that could reach 3,000.

He didn't even make it to 2,400.

The conversation doesn't matter. Sure, Butler could do it, but his odds are a hell of a lot worse than Edgar's were, IMO and Edgar didn't even approach it. 3,000 hit guys are made in their late 30s. Either they're guys like Craig Biggio that keep knocking out 170 hit seasons after their 35 birthdays or they're Edgar. In other words - it's just not a conversation worth having for another 7 years.

Look at it this way - Butler's 3 years ahead of David Ortiz, essentially. So even if you presume that those will be 3 good years, you're talking about adding another 550 or so hits to his total than Ortiz. David Ortiz has aged better than any bad body hitter I can remember and he hits in a perfect park for him - he's still not going to get to within 500 hits of 3,000.

I'd be shocked if Butler topped 2500, truth be told. But if he can get to 2400 by the time he's 35, he has a shot. That seems damn unlikely to me.