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Old 01-11-2017, 09:23 AM  
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John McCain: Schmuck Supreme

Sworn Donald Trump enemy John McCain admitted Wednesday that he passed the dossier of claims of a Russian blackmail plot against the president-elect.
The Arizona senator issued a public statement amid mounting questions of his exact role in the affair - and how a document riddled with errors and unverifiable claims came to be published.
'Late last year, I received sensitive information that has since been made public,' he said.
'Upon examination of the contents, and unable to make a judgment about their accuracy, I delivered the information to the Director of the FBI.
'That has been the extent of my contact with the FBI or any other government agency regarding this issue.'
But the 2008 Republican loser, who disowned his party's candidate weeks before the election, may have been far more intimately involved than that.

The chain of how the document reached the FBI is not officially known.
However Carl Bernstein, the Watergate reporter who contributed to the first story about its existence, published by CNN on Tuesday afternoon, suggested that McCain was handed it by a former British ambassador to Moscow.
Bernstein told CNN: 'It came from a former British MI6 agent who was hired from a political opposition research firm in Washington who was doing work about Donald Trump for both republican and democratic candidates opposed to Trump.
'They were looking at Trumps business ties, they saw some questionable things about Russians, about his businesses in Russia, they in turn hired this MI6 former investigator, he then came up with additional information from his Russian sources, he was very concerned by the implications of it, he then took it to an FBI colleague that he had known in his undercover work for years, he took it to this FBI man in Rome who turned it over to the bureau in Washington in August.
'And then, a former British ambassador to Russia independently was made aware of these findings and he took the information to John McCain – Senator John McCain of Arizona – in the period just after the election, and showed it to McCain – additional findings.
'McCain was sufficiently disturbed by what he read to take it to FBI director James Comey himself personally, they had a five minute meeting the two men, very little was said, McCain turned it over to him and is now awaiting what the FBI’s response is to that information.'
The identity of the former British ambassador has not been disclosed.
Only one former British ambassador to Washington remains in UK government service, Sir Tim Barrow, who went on to be Foreign Office political director and is now Britain's ambassador to the European Union.
McCain's long-standing opposition to Trump is well known although he only formally ended support for the Republican candidate in October, when the notorious 'p****' tape emerged.

The Arizona senator said at the time: '"Donald Trump’s behavior... concluding with the disclosure of his demeaning comments about women and his boasts about sexual assaults, make it impossible to continue to offer even conditional support for his candidacy.'
US intelligence agencies have claimed that Russian spies hacked the Democratic National Committee and leaked damaging emails designed to undermine Hillary Clinton's campaign for president.


The new information, which has not been independently verified, claims that Russian officials also gathered highly damaging information on Trump, but only released the details attacking Clinton through the WikiLeaks website.
The Kremlin has denied all of the allegations, while Trump tweeted: 'FAKE NEWS - A TOTAL POLITICAL WITCH HUNT'.

However, McCain was so concerned about the information contained within the 35-page dossier, which included allegations that Trump had hired prostitutes in Moscow to urinate on a bed that had previously been used by US President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle, that he passed the information onto the FBI
CNN reported that intelligence chiefs had presented Trump with a two-page summary of the dossier late last week following a briefing with President Obama.
It is not known if it included the most salacious details.
Trump has consistently denied that Russian intelligence agencies had launched a massive cyber attack ahead of last November's election.
The dossier which McCain passed to FBI Director James Comey was compiled by the former MI6 man.
The memos describe sex videos involving prostitutes filmed during a 2013 visit by Trump to a luxury Moscow hotel, supposedly as a potential means for blackmail.
They also suggest Russian officials proposed lucrative deals in order to win influence over the Republican real estate magnate.
One claim, that special counsel to Trump Michael Cohen met with Kremlin officials in Prague in August 2016 has been branded as 'fake news'.
Cohen denied that he was central 'to the ongoing secret liaison relationship between the New York tycoon's campaign and the Russian leadership'.
Cohen tweeted a photograph of his passport and said he had never visited Prague.
According to reports, the former MI6 man had been hired to conduct 'opposition research' on the Trump campaign by first Republican enemies of Trump, then Democratic ones.
Russia denied the claims, with President Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov telling journalists: 'The Kremlin does not have compromising information on Trump.'
The Kremlin spokesman called the dossier a 'total fake' and 'an obvious attempt to harm our bilateral relations'.
Earlier, the Kremlin had denied hacking the Democratic National Committee and leaking information to deliberately weaken Hillary Clinton's campaign.
Donald Trump's transition team has repeatedly denied allegations that it had received any help from Moscow.


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Old 01-12-2017, 11:08 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
That's probably the stupidest thing anyone will read all day. At least we got it out of the way by noon.
Humor me: explain to me how front-loading of primaries by states that may or may not represent national preferences, coupled with a winner-take-all approach, enhances the spirit of the democratic process. It's a sincere question.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:09 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
In the interest of clarity, because it seems increasingly that details fail to register with people here.

I didn't weigh in on this issue at all until patteau made the statement that this whole 'Russian invasion' thing was so much more important than than how corrupt or incompetent a candidate might turn out to be.

I simply asked him to clarify whether that was indeed his position, or whether I was reading the implications of his phrasing wrong.

Patteau is the one who turned it into 'oooh, you love Donald and want to have his babies, and your brain isn't working right because you hate hate hate the woman politician.'

I've been pretty circumspect about throwing around punches in the 'team red/blue' arena since 11/9 [never forget] as there is clearly some emotional trauma some need to work through and I'm giving them space to do that.

But if people are going to insist on all sides in continuing the retarded narrative, I guess I have to decide whether to wade back in and start calling people on their shit, no matter how emotion, grief-driven and temporary said shit is, or to simply say **** all y'all and write everyone off as irredeemably ensnared in personality conflicts to have meaningful conversations anymore.
What was post 134 about? I gave you a reasonable answer to your question and asked you for something if you wanted to advance the discussion. You could have answered my question and we could have carried on or you could have accepted my answer and simply said you disagreed. Instead, you recharacterize my position in a way that distorts it and drop some snark.

Yeah, you were an innocent victim here.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:14 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Humor me: explain to me how front-loading of primaries by states that may or may not represent national preferences, coupled with a winner-take-all approach, enhances the spirit of the democratic process. It's a sincere question.
No, I'm not going to play the game where you move the goalposts every time you say something stupid. Your earlier post stated:

Quote:
The very idea of "winner-take-all" spits into the face of democracy.
It said nothing about front loading primaries or national preferences.

Saying that "winner take all" spits in the face of democracy just shows that you don't know what democracy means.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:20 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
What you characterize as snark, I stand behind as an honest attempt at summarizing your priorities.



You stated a blanket hierarchy while discussing these specific instances. I asked you if that was a hierarchy your stood behind on general principle.

I'm not going to go into a detailed thesis on the specifics of either the Russian interference or Hillary's malfeasance, because at this point they're largely moot, and my point wasn't about the specifics of this present case, but the general prioritizing you were proclaiming.

You insist on specific concerns about Hillary's incompetence and corruption to tabulate against your vague intimation of 'Russian interference.' I believe that hewing strictly to the 'facts' of the instant matters is inferior thinking, both because the concepts can stand on their merits generally, and the specific facts in the instant matter are not agreed upon or established by consensus even now.

Don't think of it in terms of whether some specific thing Hillary might or might not have done was worse than 'Russian interference.' First off, you are insisting on the high ground of comparing rebuttable, or simply deniable, specifics against a spectre.

Think of it in terms of whether incompetence and corruption in actual elected officials is better or worse than attempts to sway voter sentiment by outsiders.

If you had such a problem with prioritizing the integrity of the electoral system from attempted foreign influence over the integrity of elected officials, point out how I'm missing your argument. Don't dismiss it as snark and insist on gliding back into a tired team Donald/team Hillary narrative.
Well, it was snark, whether you can see it or not. There's a better way to do what you were doing.

That said, let's put it behind us. This is why I can't agree with you here. Consider two different levels of malfeasance. One is a level of malfeasance that threatens the future existence of our country and the other is a level of malfeasance like getting some cousins lucrative government contracts. The former might be more important than Russian interference in an election, but the latter is not (IMO). My current understanding of the malfeasance exposed by wikileaks and dcleaks doesn't rise to the same level as the Russian interference IMO, particularly because Hillary lost so she's not in a very good position to create ongoing malfeasance problems. I asked you for an example in case there was some wikileaks revelation that I've missed that could change my calculation.

Your recharacterization of my position eliminates that nuance. It casts the situation as one or the other (malfeasance or foreign interference) as always being worse and that's not the case.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:24 AM   #200
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If you wished merely to state 'I don't care about corruption right now because Hillary is defeated and the Russians are occupying my attention, but I don't extend this temporary hierarchy to general principals' you could have said so at the outset.

I think you're missing that I was asking you about the hierarchy because I SPECIFICALLY wanted to know how generally you applied such a blanket statement.

I'm aware there are levels to corruption, incompetence AND interference. You were the one that made the proclamation that interference trumps [npi] all other concerns.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:25 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
No, I'm not going to play the game where you move the goalposts every time you say something stupid. Your earlier post stated:



It said nothing about front loading primaries or national preferences.

Saying that "winner take all" spits in the face of democracy just shows that you don't know what democracy means.
You are conflating general election outcomes with the Presidential Primary preference/candidate selection process. Regarding the general election; I'd agree with your position. Hence, you don't see me whining about the election outcome (my beef is with the behavior of our President-elect.) I was speaking, specifically, of the Primary process.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:27 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
If you wished merely to state 'I don't care about corruption right now because Hillary is defeated and the Russians are occupying my attention, but I don't extend this temporary hierarchy to general principals' you could have said so at the outset.
Well, I guess that's the kind of thing you learn about someone through dialog instead of cutting the conversation short with a post like 134. Tbh, I think that my position was clear enough on that issue already, but I'll entertain the idea that it wasn't obvious to all.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:30 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
You are conflating general election outcomes with the Presidential Primary preference/candidate selection process. Regarding the general election; I'd agree with your statement. I was speaking, specifically, of the Primary process.
No, I'm talking about your idiotic comment:

Quote:
The very idea of "winner-take-all" spits into the face of democracy.
It's a very stupid comment, regardless of whether or not you were referring to the primary process.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:30 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
If you wished merely to state 'I don't care about corruption right now because Hillary is defeated and the Russians are occupying my attention, but I don't extend this temporary hierarchy to general principals' you could have said so at the outset.

I think you're missing that I was asking you about the hierarchy because I SPECIFICALLY wanted to know how generally you applied such a blanket statement.

I'm aware there are levels to corruption, incompetence AND interference. You were the one that made the proclamation that interference trumps [npi] all other concerns.
Yes, I guess I was missing that, but no, I didn't make that proclamation. I made the proclamation that in this situation, the Russian interference was the most important fact. That is a pretty specific proclamation, not a general one.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:33 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
No, I'm talking about your idiotic comment:

It's a very stupid comment, regardless of whether or not you were referring to the primary process.
Winner-take-all, by definition, is often NOT about majority rule; it's why many local, and some state elections, hold run-off elections. If you don't accept majority rule as a central principle of democracy....fine. Many of the rest of us do.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:38 AM   #206
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Yes, I guess I was missing that, but no, I didn't make that proclamation. I made the proclamation that in this situation, the Russian interference was the most important fact. That is a pretty specific proclamation, not a general one.

Saying that one issue (Russian influence) is more important than the other (wikileaks truths about Hillary/democrat corruption) isn't the same as saying the second issue isn't important at all, btw.
I still think there's a whiff of you being led around by the nose, even in this limited specific instance, perhaps as an integral part of it.

You seem to be downplaying the importance of corruption [substituting henceforth for corruption and incompetence for brevity] because Hillary lost, which is a bit of chicken/egg, because we don't know the level to which exposure/evidence solidified the case FOR her corruption.

And people, not just you, are still pussy-footing around the exact gripe/allegation/charge of interference here. Russian interference in elections is an ominous charge, much like 'radicalized Islam' or 'homegrown terrorism.' Yet you insist on specificity in the case against Hillary [which you admit is moot] to weigh against the spectre of interference, which it seems you're blithe to leave vague, intoning anything from the publication of persuasive factual information to outright rigging and outcome alteration.

This is an odd tact, as I would hope you realize that none of this would even be discussed, let alone passionately pleaded, had Hillary won.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:49 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
I still think there's a whiff of you being led around by the nose, even in this limited specific instance, perhaps as an integral part of it.

You seem to be downplaying the importance of corruption [substituting henceforth for corruption and incompetence for brevity] because Hillary lost, which is a bit of chicken/egg, because we don't know the level to which exposure/evidence solidified the case FOR her corruption.

And people, not just you, are still pussy-footing around the exact gripe/allegation/charge of interference here. Russian interference in elections is an ominous charge, much like 'radicalized Islam' or 'homegrown terrorism.' Yet you insist on specificity in the case against Hillary [which you admit is moot] to weigh against the spectre of interference, which it seems you're blithe to leave vague, intoning anything from the publication of persuasive factual information to outright rigging and outcome alteration.

This is an odd tact, as I would hope you realize that none of this would even be discussed, let alone passionately pleaded, had Hillary won.


Great post Baby Lee and I agree completely.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:50 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Yes, I guess I was missing that, but no, I didn't make that proclamation. I made the proclamation that in this situation, the Russian interference was the most important fact. That is a pretty specific proclamation, not a general one.
And if the russians were involved then what?
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:51 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Winner-take-all, by definition, is often NOT about majority rule; it's why many local, and some state elections, hold run-off elections. If you don't accept majority rule as a central principle of democracy....fine. Many of the rest of us do.
Seriously, look up the definition of democracy. Here, let me help:

Quote:
noun, plural democracies.
1.
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/democracy

Quote:
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

Quote:
plural
democracies

1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

Quote:
Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, Dēmokratía literally "rule of the commoners"), in modern usage, is a system of government in which the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body, such as a parliament.[1] Democracy is sometimes referred to as "rule of the majority".[2] Democracy was originally conceived in Classical Greece, where political representatives were chosen by a jury from amongst the male citizens: rich and poor[citation needed].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Quote:
Democracy, or democratic government, is "a system of government in which all the people of a state or polity ... are involved in making decisions about its affairs, typically by voting to elect representatives to a parliament or similar assembly," as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary.[1] Democracy is further defined as (a "government by the people; especially : rule of the majority (b " a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections."[2]
https://infogalactic.com/info/Democracy

I hope that helps you figure out why your initial post was so ridiculous.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:54 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
I still think there's a whiff of you being led around by the nose, even in this limited specific instance, perhaps as an integral part of it.

You seem to be downplaying the importance of corruption [substituting henceforth for corruption and incompetence for brevity] because Hillary lost, which is a bit of chicken/egg, because we don't know the level to which exposure/evidence solidified the case FOR her corruption.

And people, not just you, are still pussy-footing around the exact gripe/allegation/charge of interference here. Russian interference in elections is an ominous charge, much like 'radicalized Islam' or 'homegrown terrorism.' Yet you insist on specificity in the case against Hillary [which you admit is moot] to weigh against the spectre of interference, which it seems you're blithe to leave vague, intoning anything from the publication of persuasive factual information to outright rigging and outcome alteration.

This is an odd tact, as I would hope you realize that none of this would even be discussed, let alone passionately pleaded, had Hillary won.

What is interesting is the Chinese hacked into thousands and thousand of goverment Intel yet this president and patteeu never mention this or talk about punishment for those crimes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...personnel.html
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Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.Fairplay is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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