***OFFICIAL*** 2013 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

From Bernie's column:

People have asked me why we’re not more emotional,” Matheny said in his office after Sunday’s game. “They say that we look subdued, always intense. That our actions are methodical, robotic at times. That’s what got us here. This isn’t the time to change it.”

It’s hard to argue with the manager’s assessment. The Cardinals finished with 97 victories, most by a Cards team since 2005, and tied with Boston for No. 1 in the majors this year.


Their 54-27 showing at Busch Stadium matches the 1985 team for the best single-season home winning percentage (.667) by the Cardinals since 1944.

A postseason theme has emerged, and it echoes the mantra that surfaced before the start of 2013: remember the fall of 2012. Remember falling to San Francisco in the NLCS.


The Cardinals’ veterans still haven’t forgotten. They still aren’t over it. It’s why Matheny resists GM John Mozeliak’s urgings to smile and put on a happier face.


Here's the most impressive aspect of the Cardinals' division championship: they prevailed over two other outstanding teams, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.



The 97-win Cardinals were better this year (regular season) than they were in 2011, when they won 90 games, and 2012, when they won 88.
Here are a few numbers that help put the Cardinals' Central title and No. 1 NL seed in perspective:



* Since MLB switched to a three-division format in each league in 1994, this was only the sixth time that a division had three 90-plus win teams. St. Louis won 97, Pittsburgh 94, and Cincinnati 90.
* Since the format change, this was only the second time that an NL division had three 90-win teams. In 2002 the NL West had Arizona (98 wins), San Francisco (95) and Los Angeles (92).
* The 2013 Cardinals faced more esteemed and difficult competition at the top of the division than any of the division-winning teams managed by Tony La Russa.

The Pirates were hardly pushovers; the Cardinals had to work like mad and kick in with a strong finish to put the division away, and didn't clinch until Game No. 160.



The Cardinals went 9-10 against Pittsburgh this season and were 11-8 vs. Cincinnati.


The Cardinals won only three of 10 games at PNC Park in Pittsburgh and split the 10 games at Cincinnati. The Cardinals were 6-3 against both teams at Busch Stadium.


The Cardinals (1st), Pirates (3rd) and Reds (5th) ranked among the top five in wins in the NL. The three teams were among the top 11 in wins in MLB. All three teams finished in the top five in the majors for best overall ERA, and each were in the top five MLB for best starting-pitching ERA.


The original purpose to this piece was to point out that the Cardinals managed to finish with the league's best record while competing in a division that had three 90-win teams for only the second time in the last 19 years of National League baseball.



The Cardinals really earned this.
Thanks for reading ...
— Bernie

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

Gordon is a better hitter than Craig, and he has proven quite durable, something Craig has yet to really do. He's a .300/.370 OBP guy who is going to hit around 20 HR and 40 2B (and that's in a lineup where he has much less help than he would in St. Louis, and much more pressure). If you don't like him 4th, hit him 2nd or 3rd and drop Beltran and Holliday down a slot.

Or forget about Gordon at 1st or 3rd. Play Matt Holliday at 1B and leave Gordon in left. Keeps Holliday's bat in the lineup and moves him off of a position where he is below- to fringe-average. Holliday might also be able to avoid the nagging injuries that always seem to steal a couple of weeks from each of his seasons.

Gordon also hits lefthanded.

It hasn't mattered this year, but for his career there is a noticeable split there. Good, RH, RBI bats are really in short supply, especially in the Cardinals system.

I'd be extremely reluctant to take a RH bat out of the lineup in favor of another LHer.

I'm also FAR from willing to just concede that Alex Gordon is a better hitter than Allen Craig. Craig's going to hit for more power year in, year out, IMO. Additionally, while Gordon's more likely to draw a walk, he's also more likely to strike out. Seeing as how Craig is used as an RBI/Cleanup hitter, his ability to make contact more frequently is largely what makes him such an outstanding RBI guy. I know RBI is team dependent, but if all things are equal, Craig is a better RBI hitter due to his approach.

In the end, they're comparable hitters, but Gordon is a better athlete/baserunner. I think it's hard to go wrong with either one, but given the difficulty in finding a premier RH RBI bat, I'd prefer keep the righty and sacrifice the athleticism, especially if we're talking about a scenario where either player is at 1b.

Matt Adams? Pft - Gordon in a walk. Adams may be great someday, but the book on him is out right now (hard in, hard in, soft away; take a seat). He needs to adjust to pitchers adjusting to him before I start including him in any of these conversations.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Gordon also hits lefthanded.

It hasn't mattered this year, but for his career there is a noticeable split there. Good, RH, RBI bats are really in short supply, especially in the Cardinals system.

I'd be extremely reluctant to take a RH bat out of the lineup in favor of another LHer.

I'm also FAR from willing to just concede that Alex Gordon is a better hitter than Allen Craig. Craig's going to hit for more power year in, year out, IMO. Additionally, while Gordon's more likely to draw a walk, he's also more likely to strike out. Seeing as how Craig is used as an RBI/Cleanup hitter, his ability to make contact more frequently is largely what makes him such an outstanding RBI guy. I know RBI is team dependent, but if all things are equal, Craig is a better RBI hitter due to his approach.

In the end, they're comparable hitters, but Gordon is a better athlete/baserunner. I think it's hard to go wrong with either one, but given the difficulty in finding a premier RH RBI bat, I'd prefer keep the righty and sacrifice the athleticism, especially if we're talking about a scenario where either player is at 1b.

Matt Adams? Pft - Gordon in a walk. Adams may be great someday, but the book on him is out right now (hard in, hard in, soft away; take a seat). He needs to adjust to pitchers adjusting to him before I start including him in any of these conversations.

Fair enough. We'll see how it plays out this year, and if Craig can stay healthy. I think you'd see Gordon hit for more power in a better lineup with better protection and slotted in an RBi spot. Not playing half of his games in the K (being told by his hitting coach to try to avoid hitting HR because of the park) would also probably help...

Final food for thought: Alex Gordon is fifth in MLB in WAR since the start of 2011 (the year of his swing/approach change and consequential re-emergence). Just saying...

His career renaissance has been, literally, remarkable. At least one thing has gone right recently for KC.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by frazod

I'm okay with Holliday. I mean, I'm never going to rush out and buy a Holliday jersey, but he's our No. 1 guy, like it or not. I just hope he's still useful in October.

OMG!

[Pepe Silvia]

I wasn't here last baseball season, is frazod a Holliday hater or something?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

1) Would Alex Gordon start for the Cardinals?

I think you'd have to find a place for him, but really - Holliday's not going anywhere. A) He just flat makes too much money. But really, it's more than that. He's a damn gutty player and I think he's a good 'complementary' leader. He's a guy that is a great 'leader by example'. I think you need vocal leaders as well, but Holliday's been a winning ballplayer his whole career and I do think the young players on this roster respect the hell out of him and how he approaches the game.

Gordon can't really play CF and Beltran can't either. In 2014 you'd have an easy answer - Beltran walks, Gordon plays RF and Taveras gets wedged into CF. In 2013, however, I'd rather have Beltran. You forget how nice it is to have a switch hitter in the center of your lineup until you have one. Apart from that, Beltran's just a timely HR machine. I like Gordon a lot and ultimately Beltran will have a streak where he's completely lost at some point this year, but Beltran's ability to switch hit combined with his HR pop gives him the edge, IMO. And while Gordon's not had a chance to prove it, I think it's extremely unlikely that he proves himself to be the post-season player that Beltran has shown to be.

But if you truly believe he's capable of playing 3b - there's your answer. I'd play him ahead of Freese all day, every day. He's simply a better player.

2) Wainwright and Shields.

Sorry, gonna have to agree with the other Cards fans here, but only because I think Wainwright was criminally underrated in 2009 and 2010. A Gold Glove winner, back to back top 3 finishes in the CY voting. 200+ Ks, leading the league in IPs while putting up an ERA+ of 155 and 160. That Adam Wainwright wasn't a tier below anyone. He didn't throw as hard as some of the guys you mentioned, but he was every bit as effective as Kershaw, Felix and essentially anyone else (Verlander's absurd year notwithstanding). No, Adam Wainwright was not a 2nd tier ace in 2009 or 2010 - he was as good as anyone there was.

This year he looks more like that Wainwright than the 2012 model. He's also a guy that's shown the stones to strike out one of the greatest post-season hitters in history in a Game 7 on the road with the winning run on base.

Ultimately, prior to this season, Shields has had only 1 truly great year. And yeah, 2011 was a remarkable season for him, but I don't think it was better than Wainwright's 2009 and it certainly wasn't better than his 2010. And if he's truly back to that form, and it looks like he might be, he's simply a little better pitcher than Shields with a better resume.

3) Billy Butler has a shot at 3000 hits.

Here's the problem, I once had this exact same discussion regarding Edgar Renteria. At the same age Billy Butler is now, Edgar had nearly 1,500 hits and had just come off the most productive 3 years of his career. He was a lynchpin hitter for a 105 win ballclub and looked for all the world like a guy that could reach 3,000.

He didn't even make it to 2,400.

The conversation doesn't matter. Sure, Butler could do it, but his odds are a hell of a lot worse than Edgar's were, IMO and Edgar didn't even approach it. 3,000 hit guys are made in their late 30s. Either they're guys like Craig Biggio that keep knocking out 170 hit seasons after their 35 birthdays or they're Edgar. In other words - it's just not a conversation worth having for another 7 years.

Look at it this way - Butler's 3 years ahead of David Ortiz, essentially. So even if you presume that those will be 3 good years, you're talking about adding another 550 or so hits to his total than Ortiz. David Ortiz has aged better than any bad body hitter I can remember and he hits in a perfect park for him - he's still not going to get to within 500 hits of 3,000.

I'd be shocked if Butler topped 2500, truth be told. But if he can get to 2400 by the time he's 35, he has a shot. That seems damn unlikely to me.

1. No, the opening we have is for SS and maybe if Taveras can't handle, CF.
2. Wainwright is way better than Shields. But I do love Shields.
3. I don't think so. 3000 hits is a tough haul.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

I wasn't here last baseball season, is frazod a Holliday hater or something?

His tendency to piss his pants in the postseason irks me.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

I wasn't here last baseball season, is frazod a Holliday hater or something?

Do I have a man crush on Miller and Rosenthal?

[Pepe Silvia]

Originally Posted by frazod

His tendency to piss his pants in the postseason irks me.

I see, just trying to understand the pic he posted.

[Pepe Silvia]

His injury problems is what irked me, I would always know it would be a matter of time before he made a DL stint.

[Pepe Silvia]

I just checked, 2011 was the only season he missed some time but damn it seems like hes always hurt.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

I just checked, 2011 was the only season he missed some time but damn it seems like hes always hurt.

check his stats about "choking" too. He's just not that bad.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by frazod

His tendency to piss his pants in the postseason irks me.

Frazod is still pissed about the dropped fly ball. Seriously.

[Pepe Silvia]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

check his stats about "choking" too. He's just not that bad.

I like Holliday. Never considered him a choker.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Frazod is still pissed about the dropped fly ball. Seriously.

I wouldn't say that, but thinking about it still pisses me off.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by frazod

I wouldn't say that, but thinking about it still pisses me off.

And standing out there eating sunflower seeds....