***OFFICIAL*** 2013 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

From Bernie's column:

People have asked me why we’re not more emotional,” Matheny said in his office after Sunday’s game. “They say that we look subdued, always intense. That our actions are methodical, robotic at times. That’s what got us here. This isn’t the time to change it.”

It’s hard to argue with the manager’s assessment. The Cardinals finished with 97 victories, most by a Cards team since 2005, and tied with Boston for No. 1 in the majors this year.


Their 54-27 showing at Busch Stadium matches the 1985 team for the best single-season home winning percentage (.667) by the Cardinals since 1944.

A postseason theme has emerged, and it echoes the mantra that surfaced before the start of 2013: remember the fall of 2012. Remember falling to San Francisco in the NLCS.


The Cardinals’ veterans still haven’t forgotten. They still aren’t over it. It’s why Matheny resists GM John Mozeliak’s urgings to smile and put on a happier face.


Here's the most impressive aspect of the Cardinals' division championship: they prevailed over two other outstanding teams, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.



The 97-win Cardinals were better this year (regular season) than they were in 2011, when they won 90 games, and 2012, when they won 88.
Here are a few numbers that help put the Cardinals' Central title and No. 1 NL seed in perspective:



* Since MLB switched to a three-division format in each league in 1994, this was only the sixth time that a division had three 90-plus win teams. St. Louis won 97, Pittsburgh 94, and Cincinnati 90.
* Since the format change, this was only the second time that an NL division had three 90-win teams. In 2002 the NL West had Arizona (98 wins), San Francisco (95) and Los Angeles (92).
* The 2013 Cardinals faced more esteemed and difficult competition at the top of the division than any of the division-winning teams managed by Tony La Russa.

The Pirates were hardly pushovers; the Cardinals had to work like mad and kick in with a strong finish to put the division away, and didn't clinch until Game No. 160.



The Cardinals went 9-10 against Pittsburgh this season and were 11-8 vs. Cincinnati.


The Cardinals won only three of 10 games at PNC Park in Pittsburgh and split the 10 games at Cincinnati. The Cardinals were 6-3 against both teams at Busch Stadium.


The Cardinals (1st), Pirates (3rd) and Reds (5th) ranked among the top five in wins in the NL. The three teams were among the top 11 in wins in MLB. All three teams finished in the top five in the majors for best overall ERA, and each were in the top five MLB for best starting-pitching ERA.


The original purpose to this piece was to point out that the Cardinals managed to finish with the league's best record while competing in a division that had three 90-win teams for only the second time in the last 19 years of National League baseball.



The Cardinals really earned this.
Thanks for reading ...
— Bernie

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

FYP

Harvey

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I'm noticing a trend. How many times did a Larussa coached team play down to its opponents talent?

No research to back up this opinion. It just seems to me that Matheny coached teams take care of business better than Larussa teams. Although they do share the same affinity for just winning series's instead of going for the sweep.

There is some merit to this, but I think it's due to this reason:

Matheny rests players to give them a break. La Russa rested players to give the scrubs more PT. The result was that our bench players were sharp, but I felt it was very difficult to get marginal starters to play consistently, especially young players, as they were repeatedly yanked in and out of the lineup.

I'm not as concerned about the series thing. Far too often La Russa would outright punt the final game of a series or Sunday games.

Remember "Pujols and the scrubs"? Happened for years. Matheny seems to have a good feel of when to get his position players in and out of the lineup. His bullpen management has also improved, in spite of Boggsian implosions.

Overall, he's shown growth and an inability to learn to this point. I'm very pleased.

[Jewish Rabbi]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

There is some merit to this, but I think it's due to this reason:

Matheny rests players to give them a break. La Russa rested players to give the scrubs more PT. The result was that our bench players were sharp, but I felt it was very difficult to get marginal starters to play consistently, especially young players, as they were repeatedly yanked in and out of the lineup.

I'm not as concerned about the series thing. Far too often La Russa would outright punt the final game of a series or Sunday games.

Remember "Pujols and the scrubs"? Happened for years. Matheny seems to have a good feel of when to get his position players in and out of the lineup. His bullpen management has also improved, in spite of Boggsian implosions.

Overall, he's shown growth and an inability to learn to this point. I'm very pleased.

It also doesn't hurt that with the exception of Wiggington and Cruz, you don't really miss much from our bench players. Adams in the lineup instead of Holliday/Craig/Beltran, Robinson is very comparable to Jay, and the middle infielders are interchangeable.

It's still early, but this may be the most complete Cardinals team we've seen since 2004.

[Jewish Rabbi]

It's just crazy that when Holliday turned his ankle the other day, I wasn't even worried if he did miss time. Just gives more playing time to Adams.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi

It also doesn't hurt that with the exception of Wiggington and Cruz, you don't really miss much from our bench players. Adams in the lineup instead of Holliday/Craig/Beltran, Robinson is very comparable to Jay, and the middle infielders are interchangeable.

It's still early, but this may be the most complete Cardinals team we've seen since 2004.

2005 was a better team than this one. Just ran into a hot Astros team at a bad time and we got raped, by Oswalt, and Muldered.

Edmonds gets thrown out mid-AB by that one who sucks the penis Phil Cuzzi, then John Rodriguez hits a 432 foot shot that is out in every other park on Earth save for that abomination.

[O.city]

Those 04 05 teams were just loaded.


But, with whats coming on, all goes well, I could see the 2014 being as good.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by O.city

Those 04 05 teams were just loaded.


But, with whats coming on, all goes well, I could see the 2014 being as good.

Never take anything in the future as a given. Enjoy the team we have now and hope it stays healthy *this* year.

The Thunder should be a testament to why you can't count on the provisions the future will bring.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Cardinals hitters to Met pitching:

Yo' wife is my baby momma/
God Damn, Mother****a/
She's a...good dick sucka'

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

If winning begets winning then the Royals wouldn't have been in this 25 year slump, dumbass. The Pirates would have also continued to run through the old NL East, and the Yankees would have never faltered even as the core four aged.

If you want to win in baseball, you need a few things: the first is a good owner. That means someone who is engaged, willing to spend but not overspend, someone who is patient but requires standards. The second thing you need is a good development system and the final is a good scouting system.

The Cardinals have all three. The Royals used to. The Yankees were fortunate enough to have it for a few years when Steinbrenner was banned from baseball, which is what allowed them to build the team that won 4/5 titles.

Right now the Royals don't have much of any of that. Like the Angels from a few years ago most of their prospects are extremely overrated. I'm not sure why that is; perhaps it's due to the national influence of Royals fans like Rob Neyer and Rany, although I doubt it. It's not a coincidence that there hasn't been a single Royals hitting prospect who hasn't disappointed when promoted to the big league club in at least five years, probably longer. Hell, Aviles is the last over-performer I can remember.

The Royals can't develop talent from within their system. Because of that, it probably appears that they can't draft. I think there is an element of truth to that (Hochevar, and a few others to lesser degrees), but it's hard to tell because a lot of that falls on the player development side.

Obviously, they Royals have spent little over the last two decades, but Kansas City has shown that they'll support a winner. Arrowhead was a ghost town in the 80s and then it became nearly impossible to get STs in the 90s. Did the nature of sports fans change in KC, or are they willing to support teams that appear competitive? KC had great attendance in the 70s and 80s. The town just didn't start hating baseball. The Chiefs are the perfect example.

If you put Tampa's org in Kansas City they'd draw 2.5 million fans a year.

Ultimately, you're looking for excuses that make it easier to sleep, b/c the assumption that St. Louis has all of these ingrained advantages is just a fantasy. The Cardinals have more success than the Royals because they have better ownership, and that ownership has built a better franchise. There isn't a regional or financial roadblock, and there is no such thing as a small market team, only small market owners.

I made 1 claim: the Royals could not support the payroll STL does because it is an inferior MLB market. All your bluster here fails to address my point either way. My point is either true, or false. Nobody brought up David Glass, Dayton Moore, the farm systems, etc etc. If you stick to the topic it'll greatly help the discussion we're having.


I'll stay on topic even if you won't. That's why I posted the actual data: (1) STL is top-5 in ticket revenue, and (2) they generate $75 million more in overall revenue. Did you refute either fact? Because bringing in ancillary crap into your rebuttal is irrelevant. I don't like David Glass or Moore or the stadium or our farm system or whatever. My observation on the market differences was in no way any defense of Glass although it seems you took it that way.




(Somebody above went way off the reservation and posted something about a booklet the Cardinals produce. I have no idea how that relates to an economic trade market but I only skimmed it)



Here's my challenge to you: go post on Vivos Los Birdos or any Cards site. Ask if STL is a better baseball town than KC. Just ask. See what the Cards fans say. If they all back you up and say "Same, all dependent on the owner brah", I'll concede your point. But I know they won't.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Who cares what other Cardinal fans think? That isn't relevant to the discussion. I'm sorry if I tried to support my claim with facts about the history of both franchises rather than supposition I yanked between hemorrhoids.

Whether or not the Cardinals would support a consistent loser by going to the game has no bearing on why the Royals suck. It's a non-sequitur.

I'm not responsible for your ignorance.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I'm not responsible for your ignorance.

I wish you were. Then there was a chance for his stupidity to end some day.

[Pepe Silvia]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

We don't have the market STL does. Cards owners couldn't support that payroll here. Cards fans pay a lot to be good every year. Players like playing there too

Its not just a payroll thing, you guys can't develop talent pure and simple. Why has every stud prospect you've drafted in the last decade flopped? Carlos Beltran was the last prospect that you guys brought up in your system who produced at an elite level from what I can recall. The Royals organization reeks something rancid, its just bad from top to bottom, ownership,drafting,scouting, and player development is bottom of the barrel. Just look at Hosmer for example, he was supposed to be a can't miss and still failed in the Royals system. I respect you guys because you've stood by them but man you guys are playing with one arm tied behind your back, its a bad deal for ya'll.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

Its not just a payroll thing, you guys can't develop talent pure and simple. Why has every stud prospect you've drafted in the last decade flopped? Carlos Beltran was the last prospect that you guys brought up in your system who produced at an elite level from what I can recall. The Royals organization reeks something rancid, its just bad from top to bottom, ownership,drafting,scouting, and player development is bottom of the barrel. Just look at Hosmer for example, he was supposed to be a can't miss and still failed in the Royals system. I respect you guys because you've stood by them but man you guys are playing with one arm tied behind your back, its a bad deal for ya'll.

Greinke did win a Cy Young. That said, trades like Melky Cabrera/Jonathon Sanchez & Wil Myers/James Shields have bit the Royals pretty hard.

[Pepe Silvia]

Originally Posted by Mi_chief_fan

Greinke did win a Cy Young. That said, trades like Melky Cabrera/Jonathon Sanchez & Wil Myers/James Shields have bit the Royals pretty hard.

I forgot about Greinke, I was mainly referring to all the hitting prospects who bombed. Heck other than Greinke they haven't developed any pitching as well. Like I said something is wrong with the entire franchise, not just the owner.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

I forgot about Greinke, I was mainly referring to all the hitting prospects who bombed. Heck other than Greinke they haven't developed any pitching as well. Like I said something is wrong with the entire franchise, not just the owner.

I'd go a step further: other than Greinke, they've been absolutely horrible at developing pitching, which I guess is the reason they traded for Shields & Davis.