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Old 11-17-2004, 02:36 PM  
shaneo69 shaneo69 is offline
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Gunther has been more of a liability than an asset to the organization

Like many of you, I was doing cartwheels last winter when Gunther was re-hired as DC. Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.

After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary, and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract. Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.

Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.

In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.
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Old 11-17-2004, 02:55 PM   #2
Tuckdaddy Tuckdaddy is offline
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He struggled as a head coach with the pissy poor attitude players he was left by Marty. He yelled and screamed too much but since then he has changed. At practice and all reports say that he still has plenty of fire but keeps it on lock when he should. He learned from his experience. He's a good DC and will do better next year. He can't do any worse with the players we have.
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Old 11-17-2004, 02:56 PM   #3
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Nothing personal against you, shaneo69, but I disagree with just about everything you just said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneo69
Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.
You blame Gunther for the years he was not even here? That makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneo69
After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary.
You blame Gunther for Peterson's decisions? That makes no sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneo69
and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract.
Grbac was not an elite qb, but he was not the biggest problem we had. You are correct about the assistants being horrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneo69
Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.
Looks like speculation to me. Are you sure about all that? And again, Grbac was not the biggest problem we had. Also, I can't fault Gunther for the death of Derrick Thomas. That would be hard for any coach to overcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneo69
Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.
More speculation on your part and the fact that we were not as active in free agency as you/ me/ whoever might have liked is not the same as no help from free agency. Lional Dalton, arguably our best Dlineman, came in free agency this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaneo69
In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.
And more speculation.
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Old 11-17-2004, 02:57 PM   #4
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I dunno. Maybe there is a good reason he was never made a DC after his head coaching gig.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:02 PM   #5
KCTitus KCTitus is offline
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I tend to think that the team has never recovered from the death of DT. The defense has never been the same.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCTitus
I tend to think that the team has never recovered from the death of DT. The defense has never been the same.
Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:07 PM   #7
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I have had some of the same thoughts as shaneo69. I do think that when it comes time to rebuild the Chiefs, that the house cleaning should include everyone that is involved in the organization right now. Front office all the way down to the person who selects the cheerleaders.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:08 PM   #8
KCTitus KCTitus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs
Wasn't DT on the field during the "Monday Night Meltdown" game?
Yep...that was his last season.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCTitus
Yep...that was his last season.
So we could say the defense was in decline while DT was here, not since his death, correct?
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:15 PM   #10
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Its because Dan Salemua (sp?) went to Seattle and Neil Smith went to the .


ALso when we released Tracy Simien...and donnie edwards



it will be at least a two years maybe three before we even get a defense back together again. by then the scale will change, our offense will be the joke of the NFL..and we'll have a defense in the top 3.


Has there ever been a team that had a #1 offense and #1 defense?
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:18 PM   #11
KCTitus KCTitus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs
So we could say the defense was in decline while DT was here, not since his death, correct?
nope...the 98 season was the year that the team gave up on Marty. DT's absence began the gradual slide to the defense KC has today.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCTitus
nope...the 98 season was the year that the team gave up on Marty. DT's absence began the gradual slide to the defense KC has today.
Dang years all run together anymore. I thought the meltdown game was the start of the decline of the defense.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:26 PM   #13
shaneo69 shaneo69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coogs
Dang years all run together anymore. I thought the meltdown game was the start of the decline of the defense.
No, just ask KCJohnny. The decline of the defense started when DV was named Head Coach and the Ramzification began.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCTitus
Yep...that was his last season.
Nope, that was in 1998. DT played in 1999 and died in Feb(?) 2000. In reality, the defense in 1999 was pretty good. At least that's the way I remember it.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:30 PM   #15
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I dont know what statistical measure you'd agree to use, but I looked on pro-football-reference and here's what I saw:

1997: #1 in points allowed
1998: #22
1999: #13
2000: #19
2001: #23
2002: #28
2003: #19
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