Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2005, 09:50 AM  
MadProphetMargin MadProphetMargin is offline
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Casino cash: $1000
It just ain't America(tm) without death-squads!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/

‘The Salvador Option’
The Pentagon may put Special-Forces-led assassination or kidnapping teams in Iraq

By Michael Hirsh and John Barry
Newsweek
Updated: 10:22 a.m. ET Jan. 9, 2005


Jan. 8 - What to do about the deepening quagmire of Iraq? The Pentagon’s latest approach is being called "the Salvador option"—and the fact that it is being discussed at all is a measure of just how worried Donald Rumsfeld really is. "What everyone agrees is that we can’t just go on as we are," one senior military officer told NEWSWEEK. "We have to find a way to take the offensive against the insurgents. Right now, we are playing defense. And we are losing." Last November’s operation in Fallujah, most analysts agree, succeeded less in breaking "the back" of the insurgency—as Marine Gen. John Sattler optimistically declared at the time—than in spreading it out.

Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.)

Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions. It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK.

Also being debated is which agency within the U.S. government—the Defense department or CIA—would take responsibility for such an operation. Rumsfeld’s Pentagon has aggressively sought to build up its own intelligence-gathering and clandestine capability with an operation run by Defense Undersecretary Stephen Cambone. But since the Abu Ghraib interrogations scandal, some military officials are ultra-wary of any operations that could run afoul of the ethics codified in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That, they argue, is the reason why such covert operations have always been run by the CIA and authorized by a special presidential finding. (In "covert" activity, U.S. personnel operate under cover and the U.S. government will not confirm that it instigated or ordered them into action if they are captured or killed.)

Meanwhile, intensive discussions are taking place inside the Senate Intelligence Committee over the Defense department’s efforts to expand the involvement of U.S. Special Forces personnel in intelligence-gathering missions. Historically, Special Forces’ intelligence gathering has been limited to objectives directly related to upcoming military operations—"preparation of the battlefield," in military lingo. But, according to intelligence and defense officials, some Pentagon civilians for years have sought to expand the use of Special Forces for other intelligence missions.

Pentagon civilians and some Special Forces personnel believe CIA civilian managers have traditionally been too conservative in planning and executing the kind of undercover missions that Special Forces soldiers believe they can effectively conduct. CIA traditionalists are believed to be adamantly opposed to ceding any authority to the Pentagon. Until now, Pentagon proposals for a capability to send soldiers out on intelligence missions without direct CIA approval or participation have been shot down. But counter-terrorist strike squads, even operating covertly, could be deemed to fall within the Defense department’s orbit.

The interim government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is said to be among the most forthright proponents of the Salvador option. Maj. Gen.Muhammad Abdallah al-Shahwani, director of Iraq’s National Intelligence Service, may have been laying the groundwork for the idea with a series of interviews during the past ten days. Shahwani told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat that the insurgent leadership—he named three former senior figures in the Saddam regime, including Saddam Hussein’s half-brother—were essentially safe across the border in a Syrian sanctuary. "We are certain that they are in Syria and move easily between Syrian and Iraqi territories," he said, adding that efforts to extradite them "have not borne fruit so far."

Shahwani also said that the U.S. occupation has failed to crack the problem of broad support for the insurgency. The insurgents, he said, "are mostly in the Sunni areas where the population there, almost 200,000, is sympathetic to them." He said most Iraqi people do not actively support the insurgents or provide them with material or logistical help, but at the same time they won’t turn them in. One military source involved in the Pentagon debate agrees that this is the crux of the problem, and he suggests that new offensive operations are needed that would create a fear of aiding the insurgency. "The Sunni population is paying no price for the support it is giving to the terrorists," he said. "From their point of view, it is cost-free. We have to change that equation."

Pentagon sources emphasize there has been no decision yet to launch the Salvador option. Last week, Rumsfeld decided to send a retired four-star general, Gary Luck, to Iraq on an open-ended mission to review the entire military strategy there. But with the U.S. Army strained to the breaking point, military strategists note that a dramatic new approach might be needed—perhaps one as potentially explosive as the Salvador option.


With Mark Hosenball


© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.


Actually, this COULD work, but my prediction is that this will turn into a general slaughter of Sunnis by the Shi'ites, with American assistance.
Posts: 3,135
MadProphetMargin is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.MadProphetMargin is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2005, 10:31 PM   #76
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $10931554
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCWolfman
I just don't see a down side other than the occassional extremist screaming "We may kill the wrong guy"
"Attrocities, you war-monger....where is your compassion? Where is your humanity? Attrocities, I tell you!"

__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 39,945
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2005, 10:44 PM   #77
Cochise Cochise is offline
MVP
 
Cochise's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Casino cash: $79953893
As MM said, I don't think Joe Voter really has a problem with taking the gloves off over there.
Posts: 41,024
Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 09:50 AM   #78
BIG_DADDY BIG_DADDY is offline
THE RED MENACE
 
BIG_DADDY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: San Mateo, CA 94401
Casino cash: $63512
I wonder what MPM would propose. It's easy to sit back and criticize.
__________________
Posts: 29,620
BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 10:04 AM   #79
Cochise Cochise is offline
MVP
 
Cochise's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Casino cash: $79953893
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY
I wonder what MPM would propose. It's easy to sit back and criticize.
Oh I dunno, I guess probably complete and total surrender and retreat would be in order.
Posts: 41,024
Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.Cochise is too fat/Omaha.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 10:15 AM   #80
BIG_DADDY BIG_DADDY is offline
THE RED MENACE
 
BIG_DADDY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: San Mateo, CA 94401
Casino cash: $63512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise
Oh I dunno, I guess probably complete and total surrender and retreat would be in order.
They bitch about us being there but aknowlege we just can't leave. This has been something that has worked in the past. I have yet to hear what they would do just bitch, bitch, bitch all the time. Stick a rag in it already.
__________________
Posts: 29,620
BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.BIG_DADDY is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 12:18 PM   #81
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $473425
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief
...What I want is accountability for their conduct of official government business. Not only is there no accountability, this administration has never taken responsibility for anything! They even blamed the good sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln for their self-promotional "Mission Accomplished" sign. How insideous is that? If Clinton had done that, most conservatives on this board would have used that as evidence of how much of a scumbag he was.

I just want to see some accountability and responsibility on the part of our government instead of the same old ideological smokescreen. And I would like to see acknowledgement on the part of the true believers that if Bush were Clinton, you'd be screaming louder than progressives are now.
We just had accountability in the form of an election. You are in the minority.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,743
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 12:20 PM   #82
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $473425
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadProphetMargin
Really? Then we hung Bormann and Eichmann by MISTAKE?
They violated the only clear rule of war:

Quote:
War Rulebook

1. Win.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,743
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 01:02 PM   #83
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
In BB I trust
 
Amnorix's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Boston, Mass.
Casino cash: $212593
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadProphetMargin
Really? Then we hung Bormann and Eichmann by MISTAKE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu
They violated the only clear rule of war: WIN
I'll disagree with that, despite my prior post that said something kinda along the same lines.

There's a difference between the reality that the battlefield is not a nice place, and that harsh tactics must be used, and what Bormann, Eichmann and the rest of the Nazi leadership is accountable for.

A BIG difference.

I would say the following:

1. Tactics used against enemy armed combatants in order to remove them as enemy combatants are ALL fair. Whether it's ambushing them, using pungi sticks, dropping napalm on their heads, etc. etc. There's nothing "unfair" or morally reprehensible about methods of disarming/killing/removing threats on the battlefield.

2. The only limits to the above would apply to collateral damage that may be inflicted on civilians, and that's SITUATIONAL. Carpet bombing in an all-out war between two civilizations engaged in a life or death struggle for their nation's survival, may be warranted and not considered morally rephrensible. (see, Dresden and/or Hiroshima / Nagasaki).

3. Atrocities, in my mind, can generally only be committed against the civilian population and (usually, anyway) unarmed enemy combatants who have been effectively nullified as a threat. If you capture enemy soldiers, disarm them, and without cause or trial line them up against the wall and machine gun them down, that's an atrocity. As would the Bataan death march (which is another method of accomplishing the same thing).

One man's opinion, anyway....
Posts: 32,936
Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 01:05 PM   #84
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
In BB I trust
 
Amnorix's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Boston, Mass.
Casino cash: $212593
Please note that under my line of thought, "death squads" as described in the article, use unconventional tactics to accomplish legitimate goals of removing armed combatants and their civilian leaders.

Thus, they would not be committing atrocities IF they did not take their actions too far (a hard line to straddle, I well realize).
Posts: 32,936
Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 04:16 PM   #85
Calcountry Calcountry is offline
Shoot the tube
 
Calcountry's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Where I am
Casino cash: $4678
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadProphetMargin
I suggest you look up our record in El Salvador.
Hey MPM, there is a great show on fox called 24, you ought to check it out man.
Posts: 26,814
Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.Calcountry would the whole thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 04:17 PM   #86
MadProphetMargin MadProphetMargin is offline
Veteran
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Casino cash: $1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunnytrdr
Hey MPM, there is a great show on fox called 24, you ought to check it out man.
I'm not much of a TV guy.
__________________
"What can we do to help you stop screaming?"
Posts: 3,135
MadProphetMargin is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.MadProphetMargin is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 04:22 PM   #87
Baby Lee Baby Lee is offline
Cake Boss!!
 
Baby Lee's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: 456 Lick My Butthole Lane
Casino cash: $139598
Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief
Why don't you give me some facts that counter my opinions. If you don't have any then you are dealing with the same thing I am. Your opinion has no more legitimacy than mine. But if you want to talk about patterns of conduct that is another thing. It is easy to demand facts (when you know that neither side has them) than it is to try to defend or ignore the obvious patterns of undesirable behavior exhibited by this administration.
Whattacrocka****.

If you suspect people are doing improper things, it's incumbent on you to prove it. It's not on me to follow those people for every moment of their lives to 'prove' that they're NOT doing improper things.

You are throwing out ridiculous and unfounded charges. I'm pointing out that their ridiculous and unfounded. Ball's in your court.
__________________
I've got a real red wagon!!
Posts: 40,872
Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.Baby Lee is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 05:11 PM   #88
KCWolfman KCWolfman is offline
Fall down 7 times, get up 8
 
KCWolfman's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Casino cash: $9182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix
Please note that under my line of thought, "death squads" as described in the article, use unconventional tactics to accomplish legitimate goals of removing armed combatants and their civilian leaders.

Thus, they would not be committing atrocities IF they did not take their actions too far (a hard line to straddle, I well realize).
If they only kill those trying to kill them or us, I have no problem with the straddling at all. Hell, they can cross over and wave from the other side as far as I am concerned.
__________________
How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!
Samuel Adams
Posts: 15,465
KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.KCWolfman would the whole thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 07:23 PM   #89
penchief penchief is offline
MVP
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Casino cash: $24746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Lee
Whattacrocka****.

If you suspect people are doing improper things, it's incumbent on you to prove it. It's not on me to follow those people for every moment of their lives to 'prove' that they're NOT doing improper things.

You are throwing out ridiculous and unfounded charges. I'm pointing out that their ridiculous and unfounded. Ball's in your court.
Those questions have all been raised publicly. They just haven't been pursued publicly. Just because anything has yet to be proven publicly does not mean that each questionable situation does not deserve to be scrutinized publicly. The double-standard applied by the right can be mind-boggling at times, IMO.
Posts: 14,492
penchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking aboutpenchief is the dumbass Milkman is always talking about
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2005, 07:35 PM   #90
Loki Loki is offline
May 1993 - June 2003
 
Loki's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: not where i want to be...
Casino cash: $2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix
Please note that under my line of thought, "death squads" as described in the article, use unconventional tactics to accomplish legitimate goals of removing armed combatants and their civilian leaders.
very nice amnorix.

there's hope for you yet...
Posts: 3,672
Loki is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.Loki is a favorite in the douche of the year contest.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.