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Old 03-11-2005, 10:49 AM  
BIG_DADDY BIG_DADDY is offline
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Maybe the Neocons were right.

Very, very interesting artilcle. I find it funny that the original neocons were the intellectual liberals, I never knew that. I was for going into Afghanistan and against going into Iraq but I have to admit I may have been wrong. If democracy takes hold in the ME Bush will come out as one of the top few presidents of all time, that should go up the liberals ass a mile. Anyone betting terroristme will stay away from this subject like the plague? If you click on the link they provide other links to back up what they are saying, ENJOY.



http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg.../09/cstillwell.

OPINION: Revenge Of The Neocons
Cinnamon Stillwell

Wednesday, March 9, 2005


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To the extent that one hears the term neocon in the Bay Area, the connotation is usually sinister. But few critics actually know of whom they speak. Beyond the stereotypes, neoconservatism is simply another strain in American political history.

The original neocons were liberal intellectuals who gravitated toward the Republican Party in the late 1960s and early '70s out of frustration with the Democrats' approach to defense. Distinguishing themselves from traditional conservative isolationists, they later formed the core of the Reagan Republicans. They supported the Reagan administration's strategies toward the Soviet Union, which are now credited in large part with its demise.

In the wake of 9/11 and the war on terrorism, the muscular yet idealistic foreign policy of the neocons has once again come to the fore. Neocons believe it's in the interest of both the United States and the international community to live in a world relatively free of tyranny and simmering discontent. In short, spreading freedom is a win-win situation.

All of this makes the hostility toward them and President Bush for adopting such policies all the more puzzling -- especially when it comes from those who profess an interest in promoting human rights. But as democracy takes hold in the Muslim world before our very eyes, it seems the neocons are having their revenge at last.

'Arab Street' arises

The once-feared "Arab street" has indeed arisen -- just not against America. Instead, the people of the region have surpassed even the most optimistic neocon's wildest dreams and, rather than blaming their problems on outsiders, are at last demanding change in their own backyards. Following on the heels of successful elections in Afghanistan, the Iraqi elections in January were clearly a turning point, and the rapid succession of developments ever since proves it.

Images of Iraqi voters holding up purple ink-stained fingers in triumph turned out to have farther-reaching consequences than anyone could have hoped for. The idea that effecting regime change in a few pivotal countries can lead to a democratic domino effect in the region is literally being borne out as we speak.

Following the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, most likely at the hands of Syrian intelligence operatives and their Lebanese cohorts, throngs of people filled the street of Beirut with flags, red roses, victory signs and painted faces. Druze, Christians and Muslims alike -- defying the expectations of sectarian violence -- camped out in the streets and marched alongside each other, demanding the withdrawal of Syrian troops.

Within days of what's been dubbed the Cedar Revolution, the entire Lebanese government resigned. Ever since then, Syrian President Bashar Assad and assorted diplomats have been scrambling to convince the international community, including Arab nations, that they plan to withdraw. These scenes, reminiscent of Ukraine's Orange Revolution, were broadcast all over the Arab world and may yet inspire similar "peaceful uprisings" elsewhere.

Good signs in Egypt, Saudi Arabia


Meanwhile, in Egypt, longtime dictator Hosni Mubarak, bowing to pressure from homegrown protesters and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, has agreed to allow multiparty presidential candidates in the next election.

Saudi Arabia is following suit at a slower pace, having held a municipal election in which only men were allowed to vote. But it seems that there, too, the stirrings of change have been felt. The fact that the nation's election commission recommended that women participate in the next vote, as well as the relatively positive comments of Saudi leaders on the subject, is a good sign.

Similarly, the Palestinian election of Mahmoud Abbas can be seen as a move in the right direction. Actions do speak louder than words, and the recent suicide bombing in Tel Aviv did little to reassure skeptics. However, the anger of the Palestinian people at the terrorist groups involved at the attack -- not at Israel, for a change -- is a hopeful development.

On the other hand, the Palestinian Authority-run media glorified the bomber as a shahid, or martyr, just as they did under Yasser Arafat. Ultimately, whatever path the Palestinians choose to take, the neocons' insistence on a democratic society at peace with their neighbors is a model worth emulating.

Kind words from critics

Even longtime critics of the United States have been forced to concede that perhaps there's something to neoconservative strategy after all. Lebanese Druze leader Walid Jumblatt, in a quote that's exploded across the Western media, put it best: "It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world. The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it."

Europe, too, seems to be figuring it out, albeit from the sidelines. Bush's recent trip there ruffled the usual anti-American feathers, but it also produced introspection in more than one outlet. The German newspaper Der Spiegel carried a revealing article titled "Could Bush Be Right?" that conjured the example of President Reagan and the fall of the Berlin Wall. A pro-Bush rally in Germany, of all places, was captured in the blogosphere, if not in the mainstream media. Over in England, the heretofore staunchly antiwar Guardian admitted that "the dark cloud of the Iraq war may have carried a silver lining."

Even the editorial pages of America's own antiwar media, such as the New York Times, have demonstrated a grudging reversal. Similarly, a piece in The Christian Science Monitor by National Public Radio's Daniel Schorr conceded that "Bush may have had it right." Here in the Bay Area, KGO radio talk show host Pete Wilson devoted part of his March 3 show to the question, "What if we [those opposed to the war in Iraq] were wrong?" In the end, it's inevitable that such former critics join a winning strategy or face political irrelevance.

Biggest story of the generation

But the dyed-in-the-wool Bush bashers and neocon haters seem determined to disregard all the heartening news and persist in their antiwar narrative. As a result, they are missing out on the biggest story of a generation: the unfolding of democracy in the Muslim world. It's little wonder, for, all along, they have maintained an oddly colonial point of view in which inhabitants of the Middle East are deemed incapable of democracy. Either that, or they hold up the specter of Islamic theocracy as written in stone.

Indeed, these days it's the Left that seems to promote realpolitik pragmatism over the apparently radical idea that people all over the world not only deserve freedom but also are capable of controlling their own destinies. Meanwhile, Bush is sneered at for giving an inaugural address that's "too lofty," and the neocons are viewed as a sinister cabal forcing democracy on the unwilling natives of the world.

Admittedly, the neoconservative approach is an incredibly ambitious one, but, when it comes right down to it, what's the alternative? Trying to transform despotic regimes into democracies and enemies into allies is the only solution. These goals are accomplished not only through military means but also by supporting the moderates and intellectuals of the region. As those in the peace camp are fond of saying, endless war is not the answer.

Furthermore, Islamic terrorism has nothing to offer Muslims in the long run, and they know it. Though the Islamofascists will continue trying to wreak havoc in Iraq and beyond, ultimately, what they're selling has already been tried, and, under the Taliban in Afghanistan, it failed.

'Pink Revolution' in Iran

After the terrible suicide car bombing in Hillah last month, thousands of Iraqis gathered together in protest, chanting, "No to terrorism!" In Iran, women have begun sporting pink accessories along with the requisite black abaya in what some are calling the "Pink Revolution." Hundreds of women (and even some men) marked International Women's Day in Pakistan by marching against the acquittal of five suspects in a case of "honor rape" that's shaking the nation.

From Iran to Lebanon and Egypt to Syria, the people have spoken, and what they want is freedom. But the naysayers don't seem to be listening, perhaps because to do so would be to acknowledge that Bush and the neocons might just have been onto something all along.

For those still wringing their hands at what to do about the war on terrorism, here's a revolutionary suggestion: How about what we're already doing? As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. This doesn't mean that everything will fall into place perfectly or that challenges don't lie ahead, but, by all accounts, there is reason for encouragement. Lest it be thought that supporting such policies translates automatically into becoming a Republican, think again. It may be difficult for those in the post-Vietnam era to comprehend, but during World War II, the country was unified in a common goal of survival, its differences elsewhere notwithstanding.

Whatever one's reasons for opposing the war in Iraq, to extend that opposition to the wave of freedom enveloping the Muslim world is to place oneself squarely on the wrong side of history. As President Bush recently said, "Freedom is on the march." The question is, are you for it, or against it?
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Old 03-11-2005, 10:54 AM   #2
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Old 03-11-2005, 10:59 AM   #3
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Mememe gives it 6 months, max.
She's just an angry bitch.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:07 AM   #4
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Necons certainly aren't traditional conservatives. They are "liberal" in terms of trying to force progress to move the ME along the path of democracy (by force if necessary). But it's hard for me to think of them as "former liberals" or anything.

Anyway, this thread is at least 5 years too early, in some ways. We need to see what happens with Iraq, and democracy in the ME. If Iraq is a catalyst for democratic reform throughout the ME, and a movement away from terrorist-supporting autocrats, then Bush will certain go down in history as one of the top Presidents.

As I always say, only time will tell.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:11 AM   #5
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She's just an angry bitch.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix
Necons certainly aren't traditional conservatives. They are "liberal" in terms of trying to force progress to move the ME along the path of democracy (by force if necessary). But it's hard for me to think of them as "former liberals" or anything.

Anyway, this thread is at least 5 years too early, in some ways. We need to see what happens with Iraq, and democracy in the ME. If Iraq is a catalyst for democratic reform throughout the ME, and a movement away from terrorist-supporting autocrats, then Bush will certain go down in history as one of the top Presidents.

As I always say, only time will tell.
Sounds to me like they were the liberals who were sick and tired of their wussified partners. I really feel for them and people like yourself when you have that element in your party. I hate the religious right just as much but it just seems the percentage of the right that I would consider like that seems to be much lower than the percentage of yellow bellied, white bashing, tax raising gun grabbers on the other side. Then again maybe it's where I live but it isn't any better where you are at, maybe worse.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:42 AM   #7
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She's just an angry bitch.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:46 AM   #8
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Anyone betting terroristme will stay away from this subject like the plague?
I'm not. She'll be along shortly to make her "This is a 'mixed bag' and still has time 'backfire' into a 'civil war' " post.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:48 AM   #9
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Mememe gives it 6 months, max.
Which means it will be more like 6 centuries or so. Heh.

As for the article, BD....I haven't been a fan of Bush's methods and diplomacy....but the way things are looking, a lot of liberals are squirming.

I posted a thread that compared Bush and Truman. I'm stickin' with it, at this point....so far, so good.
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Old 03-11-2005, 11:50 AM   #10
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I posted a thread that compared Bush and Truman. I'm stickin' with it, at this point....so far, so good.
And I'm the one who made the Churchill [Winston, not Ward] comparo.
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:02 PM   #11
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tee hee hee!

Of course they were "right". They've been formulating this strategy for how long now? Decades? Their "opponents" suffer from severe myopia. They lack the capacity to see three inches beyond their noses... and that's why they're getting their asses kicked.

A brilliant tactician lacking strategy will always fail if pitted against even a poor tactician with a brilliant strategy.
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix
Anyway, this thread is at least 5 years too early, in some ways. We need to see what happens with Iraq, and democracy in the ME. If Iraq is a catalyst for democratic reform throughout the ME, and a movement away from terrorist-supporting autocrats, then Bush will certain go down in history as one of the top Presidents.

As I always say, only time will tell.
Yup. While Iíve been a supporter of both fronts in the WOT, Iím not ready to do a victory lap just yet.
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:14 PM   #13
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Yup. While Iíve been a supporter of both fronts in the WOT, Iím not ready to do a victory lap just yet.
Far from taking a victory lap. I just thought we should stay out of Iraq and now I am beginning to question whether I was wrong about that with the way things are developing. You would think terroristme would be thrilled for the women in the ME but I guess her hate for the America and the white male overshadow all of that.
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:55 PM   #14
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And I'm the one who made the Churchill [Winston, not Ward] comparo.
Rejecting appeasement? Definitely some other parallels too.
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Old 03-11-2005, 01:04 PM   #15
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tee hee hee!

Of course they were "right". They've been formulating this strategy for how long now? Decades? .
So you admit that they've planned this all along, and the whole imminent threat of WMD was just a convenient way to dupe the American public into going along with what they've been planning for decades. Thanks for the candor. Glad to see I do agree with the Cons on something.
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