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Old 09-06-2005, 06:51 PM  
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What Katrina proves to the conservative

Watching this absolute failure take place really illustrates a point.

NEVER TRUST THE GOV'T TO TAKE CARE OF YOU.

The Gov'ts job isn't to evacuate, or hold your hand and help you leave a city with a cat 5 bullseye on it.

I've heard the arguement that if this took place in an affulent area would we see the same thing happen? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Affulent folks don't wait around for the gov't to house, feed, protect and provide for them. They go out and get it done. They see a cat 5 coming, they heed warning and leave. That's not a white/black, issue, it's a entitlement/do it yourself issue.

Go ahead, let me have it.
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:48 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbuskid
Watching this absolute failure take place really illustrates a point.

NEVER TRUST THE GOV'T TO TAKE CARE OF YOU.

The Gov'ts job isn't to evacuate, or hold your hand and help you leave a city with a cat 5 bullseye on it.

I've heard the arguement that if this took place in an affulent area would we see the same thing happen? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Affulent folks don't wait around for the gov't to house, feed, protect and provide for them. They go out and get it done. They see a cat 5 coming, they heed warning and leave. That's not a white/black, issue, it's a entitlement/do it yourself issue.

Go ahead, let me have it.
So you undoubtedly felt the same way after 9/11 when the goverment and FEMA helped the victims recover. Basically, anyone who could evacuate the buildings saved themselves and those who could not only have themselves to blame because they couldn't get out fast enough or stayed behind and waited to be rescued? They should not have relied on the fire department, police, or anyone in the federal government to assist them?
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:18 PM   #3
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Not fair to compare to 9-11. Hurricane gave ample warning. These people weren't listening and some had money too.

Just a huge gray area to debate.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief99
Not fair to compare to 9-11. Hurricane gave ample warning. These people weren't listening and some had money too.

Just a huge gray area to debate.
Which is all the more reason why the ineffectiveness and incompetence of the federal response is so shocking. But to the point you are making, are you insinuating that if it's a sudden and terror disaster then it's A-OK to seek government assistance but if it's a natural disaster that you have a couple of days warning before then it's not?

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Old 09-06-2005, 08:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memyselfI
Which is all the more reason why the ineffectiveness and incompetence of the federal response is so shocking. But to the point you are making, are you insinuating that if it's a sudden and terror disaster then it's A-OK to seek government assistance but if it's a natural disaster that you have a couple of days warning before then it's not?

If Bin Laden said he was planning on hitting NO on a Tuesday, I guarantee I would not be there. So YES, forewarning does play a part.

At the same time, I do agree that FEMA being run by DHS (Dumber Half of Stupidity) is a problem, and that would be Bush's fault. Also, the appointment of the FEMA director who is obviously inexperienced id also Bush's fault. I also lay blame on the local government for pre-hurricane bungling. And yes, those who had the means to evacuate but did not made their own bed.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unlurking
If Bin Laden said he was planning on hitting NO on a Tuesday, I guarantee I would not be there. So YES, forewarning does play a part.

At the same time, I do agree that FEMA being run by DHS (Dumber Half of Stupidity) is a problem, and that would be Bush's fault. Also, the appointment of the FEMA director who is obviously inexperienced id also Bush's fault. I also lay blame on the local government for pre-hurricane bungling. And yes, those who had the means to evacuate but did not made their own bed.
All you have said here is completely fair and reasonable. The only problem I have is trying to understand the empathy for those who could not evacuate for a terror attack and the lack of for those who could not in a mother nature attack...
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:01 PM   #7
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In some of the areas effected, 40% of the people fall below the poverty line. Add to that sick and elderly. There was no way those people could evacuate. That said, it doesn't take 5 days to finally get them food or to rescue them from danger. Where was the response?
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memyselfI
All you have said here is completely fair and reasonable. The only problem I have is trying to understand the empathy for those who could not evacuate for a terror attack and the lack of for those who could not in a mother nature attack...
Well the solution to that problem would have been the National Guard, of which SEVERAL thousand units were available, under DIRECT command of LA government. Pre-disaster bungling is 100% on the hands of local officials. I do agree that post-disaster bungling by FEMA is sad, but you cannot excuse the first line of defense.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unlurking
Well the solution to that problem would have been the National Guard, of which SEVERAL thousand units were available, under DIRECT command of LA government. Pre-disaster bungling is 100% on the hands of local officials. I do agree that post-disaster bungling by FEMA is sad, but you cannot excuse the first line of defense.
Exactly how do 4-5000 LAARNG troops equal "thousands of units"?

I find it interesting, and a bit pathetic, that you want to blame everyone else, except the man who sits in the office where, at least according to Harry S. Truman, The Buck is supposed to stop. There is plenty of blame at ALL levels to go around, and believe me, it will.

The Mayor, I believe, screwed up not using the buses to help evac.

The Gov. should have coordinated better with the other states.

However, FEMA's response before Katrina hit is every bit as much at fault, at least according to DHS (Now FEMA's boss) documents available at their govt. website (they don't have to wait on the state...).

Sorry, but Bush is just as culpable as the others I've mentioned, if not more, for appointing a political hack with NO disaster relief experience, and extremely limited experience as an executive administrator to head the Nations premiere disaster relief organization.


That, and the inconvienince his Photo-Ops cause those trying to conduct rescue and recovery. The last thing these people need right now are the security headaches that go with a presidential visit. He can give speechs and tell Chertoff and Brown how great a job they are doing just as well from the White House.

JMO.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memyselfI
So you undoubtedly felt the same way after 9/11 when the goverment and FEMA helped the victims recover. Basically, anyone who could evacuate the buildings saved themselves and those who could not only have themselves to blame because they couldn't get out fast enough or stayed behind and waited to be rescued? They should not have relied on the fire department, police, or anyone in the federal government to assist them?
Nope. The folks there didn't have several days of the news screaming about a cat 5, leave cause you live below sea level. Totally different circumstances.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memyselfI
All you have said here is completely fair and reasonable. The only problem I have is trying to understand the empathy for those who could not evacuate for a terror attack and the lack of for those who could not in a mother nature attack...
Terror = no warning
Cat 5 Monster = several days warning

Again, I saw lots of folks looting on tv, don't tell me they had no way to get out.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoman69
In some of the areas effected, 40% of the people fall below the poverty line. Add to that sick and elderly. There was no way those people could evacuate. That said, it doesn't take 5 days to finally get them food or to rescue them from danger. Where was the response?
People below the poverty line = no way to get out? That's a big assumption.

I do agree 5 days is quite a long time to get supplies in. Too long, but just cause someones poor doesn't mean they can't walk/drive/bike/hitch a ride out of dodge.
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Old 09-06-2005, 10:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbuskid
People below the poverty line = no way to get out? That's a big assumption.

I do agree 5 days is quite a long time to get supplies in. Too long, but just cause someones poor doesn't mean they can't walk/drive/bike/hitch a ride out of dodge.
I'm sick of moonbats/wingnuts saying Bush is trying Genocide, or that Bush has done no wrong.

This led me to do just a little math.

New Orleans, approx. pop. 500,000.

40% poverty level or below-200,000.

Assume 1/2 got out(I admit a guess, but it seems reasonable)- 100,000.

Buses, that if used, could have taken 15,000 out of NO. Assume time for 2 trips out of storm area before Katrina impact (several hundred miles each way)-however, these were not used, sadly. The Mayor has some tough questions to answer.-could have saved 30,000 leaving 70,000.
(My figures on the buses come from a reliable conservative poster on TalkLeft-he posts as James Robertson)
70,000 people, assuming all the infirm were taken out.
70,000 to walk/drive/bike/hitch a ride out of dodge, as you so blithely put it.
70,000 to get several hundred miles, with no resources largely because they could afford little, before the worst storm in decades caught them on the roads.

In reality, those 30,000 that the city could have moved are hypothetical, because the Mayor/Council dropped the ball. And that's all.


BULLSH*T!

If the richest, most powerful nation in the world can't do better than that, then we as a nation should demand WHY NOT!! Politics be damned! A lot of heads should roll because of this debacle, and the resident of the Oval Office is no less culpable than the Mayor/Council of NO, and the state govt.

After all, he put a political hack in charge of FEMA.
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Last edited by Adept Havelock; 09-06-2005 at 10:18 PM..
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Old 09-06-2005, 10:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adept Havelock
I'm sick of moonbats/wingnuts saying Bush is trying Genocide, or that Bush has done no wrong.

This led me to do just a little math.

New Orleans, approx. pop. 500,000.

40% poverty level or below-200,000.

Assume 1/2 got out(I admit a guess, but it seems reasonable)- 100,000.

Buses, that if used, could have taken 15,000 out of NO. Assume time for 2 trips out of storm area before Katrina impact (several hundred miled each way)-however, these were not used, sadly. The Mayor has some tough questions to ask.-could have saved 30,000 leaving 70,000.
(My figures on the buses come from a reliable conservative poster on TalkLeft-he as James Robertson)
70,000 people, assuming all the infirm were taken out.
70,000 to walk/drive/bike/hitch a ride out of dodge, as you so blithely put it.
70,000 to get several hundred miles, with no resources largely because they could afford little, before the worst storm in decades caught them on the roads.

In reality, those 30,000 that the city could have moved are hypothetical, because the Mayor/Council dropped the ball. And that's all.


BULLSH*T!

If the richest, most powerful nation in the world can't do better than that, then we as a nation should demand WHY NOT!! Politics be damned! A lot of heads should roll because of this debacle, and the ressident of the Oval Office is no less culpable than the Mayor/Council of NO, and the state govt.

After all, he put a political hack in charge of FEMA.
My math tells me that our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves with the entitlement mentality this nation has. If you can't figure out how to save your family from dying, with several days notice.....good grief. (I know there are exceptions, but all those folks that didn't leave aren't handicapped)
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Old 09-06-2005, 10:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbuskid
My math tells me that our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves with the entitlement mentality this nation has. If you can't figure out how to save your family from dying, with several days notice.....good grief. (I know there are exceptions, but all those folks that didn't leave aren't handicapped)
By the way, I never said Bush has done no wrong.
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