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Old 03-26-2006, 08:20 AM  
Sully Sully is offline
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Fantastic Column re: Religion and Government

I couldn't agree more. As a Christian, who is very serious about his faith, it's hard to constantly be portrayed as "attacking" Christianity for wanting it out of my government (I do want to attack Christmas, though.,..it's got to go). This article couldn't do a better job of summing up my feelings.

(I will post it in the next post, so if this thread goes more than 1 page, you won't have to scroll past it every time you go to another page.)

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...s/14179181.htm
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Old 03-26-2006, 08:20 AM   #2
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Let government be about governing
By BILL TAMMEUS
The Kansas City Star

The United States was established by people who considered religion central to their lives.

Although the early population was made up mostly of Christians, there were already so many varieties of the religion that the settlers had to struggle over how to accommodate all of them in the emerging body politic.

Freedom of religion finally won out and was built into the Constitution and its amendments.

Today America is 40-plus years into a significant and continuing shift in the country’s religious landscape that began with the adoption of immigration reform in 1965. On the whole, America is handling those changes reasonably well.

But we also see evidence that the increasing mix of religions is not sitting well with some people. In their angst, they are trying to turn their backs on principles deeply embedded in our national founding documents.

The recent fight over a pro-Christian resolution in the Missouri General Assembly is but one example of the difficulty some people are having adjusting to the reality that today they are quite likely to have as neighbors not just Christians and Jews but also Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Zoroastrians or adherents of other (and sometimes no) faiths.

In the beginning America was a landslide for Protestantism, mostly of the variety shaped by Puritanism. After much struggle for acceptance, Catholics eventually found their place in the culture. Today, in fact, five of the nine justices on the U.S. Supreme Court are Catholic.

The Protestant representation in the general population now has shrunk so much that experts say it either already has slipped below 50 percent or it soon will. And the flood of immigrants — especially from Asia and the Southern Hemisphere — arriving since 1965 has brought millions of adherents of non-Christian religions as well as many more expressions of Christianity, from Lao Baptists to Korean Presbyterians to Mexican Catholics.

Apparently people insecure about their place in society and unwilling to adapt to the new religious landscape find this threatening. They seem to want to return to a time (which never existed) when everyone went to church at 11 a.m. on Sunday and, almost in national unison, sang “Jesus Loves Me.”

As someone who usually is in church at that time on Sundays and who loves that song, I also find myself at least at first attracted to the idea that such a shared national experience wouldn’t be a bad thing.

But that’s never going to happen. And the sooner we get on with the task of learning how to live in harmony in a religiously diverse culture, the better off we’ll be and the more we can be a model for other nations struggling with questions of religious freedom.

The Missouri resolution was dangerous, even if remarkably silly. Its view of history (“our forefathers of this great nation of the United States recognized a Christian God”) was inaccurate in that it was far too broadly stated.

Its clear purpose — because as a resolution it had no enforcement authority — was simply to placate some Christians who have reacted in fear to our changing religious demographics.

There certainly are worrisome examples of public officials and private leaders who want to limit public expression of religion and, in effect, silence the religious voice in the public square. And there is work to be done to counter such bigotry and hostility.

But when legislators even think about adopting pro-Christian resolutions in response to cultural changes they see around them, they have confused their roles. They are to adopt fair, constitutional laws and to lead by moral example. They are not to put on their pastoral collars and teach us their catechism.

They need only look at Europe to see the results of state-sponsored religion. Many state churches from England to France to Germany to Sweden are withering on the vine.

Government sanction of religion almost inevitably sucks the life out of faith.

People of faith who really care about the health and spread of their religion should be working hard to keep the government out of it, except as a guarantor of religious freedom. Government should worry about public education, roads, civil rights and on and on. We people of faith will worry about religion.

Bill Tammeus
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Old 03-29-2006, 11:34 AM   #3
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So this thread is just me... but I'm not concerned...

Now, for your reading plesure, an article about the insecure, and much larger, arm of Christianity blending with government...

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...n/14208961.htm

DeLay implores religious right to make stand
Cox News Service


“Our faith has always been in direct conflict with the values of the world.”

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a Texas Republican


WASHINGTON — Embattled former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, invoking the “glory of God,” urged religious conservatives Tuesday to stand against an American culture he alleged is hostile to Christianity.

“Our faith has always been in direct conflict with the values of the world,” DeLay, a Texas Republican, said in a speech to politically active religious conservatives. “We are, after all, a society that provides abortion on demand, has killed millions of innocent children, degrades the institution of marriage and all but treats Christianity like some second-rate superstition.”

DeLay, facing political corruption charges in his home state, was one of several Republicans to address a conference dealing with the “War on Christians.” The session was sponsored by Vision America, founded by the Rev. Rick Scarborough, a fellow Texan and key organizer of “values voters” in the 2004 presidential election.

Quoting extensively from the Bible and religious writings, DeLay agreed with conference organizers that “of course, there is a war on Christianity” in America today. But “no matter how cowardly the evil before us may be, it is nothing compared to the power and glory of God,” DeLay said.

Scarborough, longtime minister of a Baptist church near Houston, alluded to DeLay’s legal difficulties and offered encouragement as the lawmaker left the event. “God always does his best work right after a crucifixion,” Scarborough said.

DeLay was indicted six months ago on conspiracy and money-laundering charges linked to fund-raising activities by his Texans for a Republican Majority political action committee ahead of the 2002 state legislature elections. The conspiracy charge was thrown out by a state court, but prosecutors have appealed. He has denied wrongdoing and has charged that the indictment was politically motivated.

DeLay’s activities in Congress also have come under the scrutiny of a federal anti-corruption task force that filed charges against DeLay’s longtime friend, former Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

Scarborough said he thinks that DeLay is “a man God has appointed … to represent righteousness in government” even as, in his view, the courts and the news media attempt to destroy the Texas lawmaker.



Nothing like a minister comparing a congressman with Jesus to make a point.
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:14 PM   #4
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"Beat back those who hate Christianity! I'll join you right after I launder this money!"

DeLay is a tool. Religious nutjobs piss me off, here and abroad.
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:43 PM   #5
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I read the same article this past weekend. It is excellent, as long as you acknowledge the truth of one paragraph he writes.....I think it's fair:

Quote:
....There certainly are worrisome examples of public officials and private leaders who want to limit public expression of religion and, in effect, silence the religious voice in the public square. And there is work to be done to counter such bigotry and hostility....


FTR, I'll reiterate two things I've said before:
1. DeLay is a tool. Always has been, always will be.
2. Christain fundamentalism is too powerful, but also over-estimated in its role in American politics.
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
2. Christain fundamentalism is too powerful, but also over-estimated in its role in American politics.
I used to believe that (the second part). Now, not so much.
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:57 PM   #7
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I think there is a big misunderstanding on the limiting of public displays of worship. Maybe it's a misunderstanding by those that feel Christianity is "under attack" (I can't even type it without laughing... seriously), maybe it's a misunderstanding by me... who knows.
I don't think, though, that anyone is against private people, companies, whatever, displaying their faith to the hilt. If Wal Mart wants to put a giant cross on top of their stores, GREAT! If Cabela's wants to build the world's biggest Nativity scene... STUPENDOUS!!
But for the government, in any form, to promote religion, or a sect of a religion, is where the line, IMO should be drawn. I don't need courthouses teaching me about Moses, or parks portraying a vrirgin giving birth. Even among Christians there are disagreements for this type of thing, and for the government to pay for something of the sort, it is an endorsement, in however small a way, and I would prefer that the government kept its hands out of it.
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sully
I think there is a big misunderstanding on the limiting of public displays of worship. Maybe it's a misunderstanding by those that feel Christianity is "under attack" (I can't even type it without laughing... seriously), maybe it's a misunderstanding by me... who knows.
I don't think, though, that anyone is against private people, companies, whatever, displaying their faith to the hilt. If Wal Mart wants to put a giant cross on top of their stores, GREAT! If Cabela's wants to build the world's biggest Nativity scene... STUPENDOUS!!
But for the government, in any form, to promote religion, or a sect of a religion, is where the line, IMO should be drawn. I don't need courthouses teaching me about Moses, or parks portraying a vrirgin giving birth. Even among Christians there are disagreements for this type of thing, and for the government to pay for something of the sort, it is an endorsement, in however small a way, and I would prefer that the government kept its hands out of it.
I don't for a minute support the idea there is a "war on Christianity;" however, if you read the news you evidence of religious bigotry all the time....

The line is not always easy to draw though....that's the problem:
1. The Pledge of Allegiance
2. Student initiated-led-conducted prayers in a VOLUNTARY school setting.
3. Use of the religious works in a Literature or History course, without indoctrination.
4. A Bible on a Teacher's desk

All have been litigated, and argued before courts.....yet, IMO, each is frivolous. I know some would disagree though....
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:48 PM   #9
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I would agree with taking "Under God" out, as it is the endorsement of a belief... and simply untrue
Numbers 2 and 3, I think those are frivolous. I think we can expect kids to lern about religions, without them being sheep to them.
Number 4 is a tough one, but I would agree that it leans toward the frivolous, as I refer to what I said for 2 and 3.

I don't know that this is ANY evidence of religious bigotry. I would say it would fall in the category of believing in the "Wall of Seperation" that Jefferson argued for. I assume that if a teacher had the Quran on his or her desk, you would have trouble stomaching it (and other in the world would certainly take it to court. I have no doubt of that.) So would that also be religious bigotry?
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sully
...I assume that if a teacher had the Quran on his or her desk, you would have trouble stomaching it (and other in the world would certainly take it to court. I have no doubt of that.) So would that also be religious bigotry?
We'll agree to disagree about the Pledge, I guess.

You know what they say about assuming....

I would not object in the least. FWIW, I have copies of the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran on the bookshelf behind my desk.
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:08 PM   #11
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To me, that is awesome that you have those. I'm sorry I assumed.
But I think there is a difference between having representations of different religions in a room, or displaying an icon of one religion. And that is where my lack of knowledge about the certain case comes in... I don't know if this was a "display" or a part of some other sort of eduactional situation.
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sully
To me, that is awesome that you have those. I'm sorry I assumed.
But I think there is a difference between having representations of different religions in a room, or displaying an icon of one religion. And that is where my lack of knowledge about the certain case comes in... I don't know if this was a "display" or a part of some other sort of eduactional situation.
FTR, mine are for personal use and reference--not for teaching. IIRC, the NY case which was overturned at the appellate level.....had said a teacher couldn't keep a personal copy on her own desk.
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Old 03-29-2006, 04:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
We'll agree to disagree about the Pledge, I guess.

You know what they say about assuming....

I would not object in the least. FWIW, I have copies of the Bible, the Torah, and the Quran on the bookshelf behind my desk.
Wow the Torah? Aren't there something like 24 volumes to the Torah?
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Wow the Torah? Aren't there something like 24 volumes to the Torah?
Yeah--it's basically the Old Testament though......I actually find the Talmud more interesting, when I dip into the religious stuff.
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Old 03-29-2006, 09:25 PM   #15
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JMO, but we got along fine without "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance from the time Francis Bellamy wrote it in 1892 until some politicans in the 50's decided it would be a politically expedient way to help fight the "Godless Red Hordes".

Sadly, along the same lines, in 1956 we traded our traditional national motto (bequeathed to us by the nations founders) "E Pluribus Unum" , for one, IMO, based on wishful thinking: "In God We Trust".

The political rhetoric of No Law but Gods Law (Which God? Which set of laws?) flew thick in the 50's, and here are the same bad ideas back again. The only difference is now the theocrats are better organized, and ironically allied with Mammon.

Bill Tammeus is one hell of a clear thinker and a solid writer, from my perspective.

I'm with you on a few points, Kotter. I consider the Torah, Talmud, Tanak, Bible, and Quran, fascinating books, with much to consider. My own library includes those, the Tao Te Ching, Confucian writings, and Vedic texts like the Mahabarata, among others. I'm not a "believer", but can appreciate the philosophies, histories, and ideals communicated in many of these works. I think our difference comes in the perspective from which they are read. You from the believers POV, and I from the skeptics.

Wandered off the point a bit (as I am wont to do when a bit fershnickered), but in closing I'd just like to say I am a strongly traditional conservative when it comes to the Pledge and National Motto, and would like them restored to their original forms before they became political footballs.
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