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Old 11-02-2000, 10:40 PM  
The 12th Man The 12th Man is offline
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There is nothing more precious than the innocence and hope of a child.

It would be a travesty to continue to hold our next generation hostage to the raw, naked self-interest of the teacher unions and Al Gore.

GO CHIEFS!!
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Old 11-02-2000, 10:50 PM   #2
KCWolfman KCWolfman is offline
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12th Man - I agree. Whomever thought of a union for teachers sure has stuck it to us for the last 20 years. Our children are the worst educated in the Industrialized World, yet we are consistently one of the top 5 spenders in the world year after year. Why is this? The only assumption I can come up with is that our moderators (the NEA) is sucking the money up before it reaches the teachers and the classrooms.

Suggest to a democrat that 90% of all education dollars go directly to the classrooms and watch them go apopletic. Because they know they will lose their ironfisted grip on their dollars if it is ever done.
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Old 11-02-2000, 11:05 PM   #3
Michael Michigan Michael Michigan is offline
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This topic is made far too difficult by rhetoric.

Poor kids deserve the same opportunities as rich kids.

The answer..vouchers to empower parents.

I understand why libs want to keep poor adults down, but find it appalling that they would want to punish children and their opportunity to achieve to promote their political agenda.
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Old 11-03-2000, 04:50 AM   #4
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Russ, MM, 12th Man,

Amen, amen and amen.

Most noteably about the public education system being a farce.

My question is; why does "mainstream" America even WANT the gvmt. educating their children?
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Old 11-03-2000, 07:20 AM   #5
Clint in Wichita Clint in Wichita is offline
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Teachers are one of the few groups that SHOULD have a union. They don't get paid squat now...imagine how little they would earn if there was no union.

The title to this topic is silly. The public schools started going downhill during the Reagan administration and his failed experiment called "trickle-down economics".

Blaming Al Gore for the current state of public schools is a joke.
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Old 11-03-2000, 07:24 AM   #6
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Clint,

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have 3 friends, all of whom WERE teachers, that said the WORST thing about the job was the UNION.

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Old 11-03-2000, 07:30 AM   #7
Clint in Wichita Clint in Wichita is offline
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If there were no union, I honestly think that teachers would find a whole new laundry list of problems with their job.
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Old 11-03-2000, 07:34 AM   #8
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I don't believe that. People with firsthand experience (my aunt was a teacher for 28 years) use terms like "strong-arming" when talking about the teachers union. The only reason nobody wants to teach is because the union sets wages for incoming teachers too low to protect those with tenure.

I worked for a company that was union for 25 years. Management and the workforce came to an agreement and abolished the union amicably. 5 years later, the company had doubled in size and increased in profits 25 fold. It didn't take long for the former union employees to realize that the union was a hindrance, and I'm sure it was helped by the fact that none of their 15% profit sharing check had to be shared with the union.

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Old 11-03-2000, 07:59 AM   #9
KC Jones KC Jones is offline
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This is pure partisan bull****! We as a society share the blame for the failures of our public education system. There is no one individual or organization at which you can lay the blame. The attempt to do so is disingenious and divisive. It does absolutely nothing to solve the problem, if anything it will make implementing solutions more difficult to do.

The problems facing our schools are numerous and multifaceted. The biggest problems IMO have less to do with the schools and more to do with the parents and the lack of strong social networks in our communities. Those are problems you just can't legislate away or throw money at.

[This message has been edited by KC Jones (edited 11-03-2000).]
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Old 11-03-2000, 08:01 AM   #10
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Partisan bull****?

If you're talking to me Jones, you're offbase. I agree with you.

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Old 11-03-2000, 08:07 AM   #11
Luzap Luzap is offline
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KC Jones,

You mean it has more to do with issues like raising a generation of parents that had much of their moral and ethical teaching removed from Public Schools?

Issues like liberal court rulings that removed the ability of schools to discipline students?

Issues like the incredibly high taxes we face that have forced many mothers into careers instead of stating home with their children?

If these are the issues you're talking about, then I totaly agree.

Luz
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Old 11-03-2000, 08:33 AM   #12
Clint in Wichita Clint in Wichita is offline
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Schools can and do punish students. They may not issue swats anymore, but that is a silly, outdated idea that had no effect on any student beyond 2nd or 3rd grade. IMO the school should not have to discipline any one child on a regular basis. That is the job of the parent...and IMO it's the multitude of bad parents out there that have caused the so-called "breakdown" of the public school system.
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Old 11-03-2000, 02:38 PM   #13
Mi_chief_fan Mi_chief_fan is online now
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A couple of points:
1) Teachers union does not set the income levels for teachers, the individual district does. If not, wouldn't all teachers be paid the same?
2) I know Gore is not well liked on this board, by my local congresman, Fred Upton (R), Michigan, credited Gore with helping to implement computers & the internet into thousands of schools, a far greater accomplishment than the previous 2 republican administrations.
3) As a union employee myself(NALC), I can tell you first hand, if not for union representation, I know of alot of employees who would long ago have been fired, over relatively petty occurances.

I know alot of you are under the impression that the idea of organized labor is outdated, and yes, it does have it's faults, but it does save jobs and prevent discrimination in hiring & firing practices.

[This message has been edited by Mi_chief_fan (edited 11-03-2000).]
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Old 11-03-2000, 02:57 PM   #14
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MI,

Not to sound attacking or anything, but as a former member of a union, and someone who had to work as a non-union member of a union-dominated company, I'd say that improved productivity, attendance, and work habits do a better job of protecting jobs and salaries than unions do. Sorry.

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Old 11-03-2000, 02:59 PM   #15
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Clint - when I was in M.S. and H.S., swats were the greatest, for one simple reason. . . they could be administered in school hours. Detention or suspension meant parental involvement and [in M.S.] I got the whuppin' anyways. Swats lasted a second. . . and actually woke me up for the rest of the day.
To set the record straight, most of the trouble I got into came from looking/dressing working class, but getting good grades, coupled with an unwillingness to acquiesce to hallway bullies. ie., a lot of small scuffles.
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