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Old 06-21-2006, 05:27 PM  
Chiefs Minor Satellite Chiefs Minor Satellite is offline
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The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage

If we raise the minimum wage are we only increasing the prevailing wage of the illegal immigrants?

Sounds very democratic to me.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage, rejecting an election-year proposal from Democrats for the first increase in nearly a decade.


The vote was 52-46, eight short of the 60 needed.


"I don't think the Republicans get it," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy,
D-Massachusetts, who backed a proposal for a three-step increase in the current wage floor to $7.25 an hour. The federal minimum wage has been fixed at $5.15 an hour since 1997.


Republican critics said the minimum wage was a job killer, not the boon to low-wage workers portrayed by Democrats.


"This is a classic debate between two different philosophies. One
philosophy believes in the marketplace, competition and entrepreneurship, and the second is a philosophy that says government knows best," said Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Georgia. He said France and Germany have high minimum wages but also high unemployment.


But Kennedy and other advocates of an increase said minimum wage workers have been without a raise since 1997.


Underscoring the political context of the debate, he said if Democrats win the Senate this November, a minimum wage increase will be one of the first pieces of legislation to be considered.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:49 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon
I agree with you that it's defensive, but I disagree with you on which side is doing the defending. The middle class is shrinking in this country and the upper 1% have a larger share of the total national wealth than ever before.
When you take money from someone by something other than an arms length exchange, that's aggression. Government mandated pricing (of labor in this case) falls into that category. Corporations making what some call obscene profits and corporate boards agreeing to pay their CEO's huge bonuses do not.
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:04 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu
When you take money from someone by something other than an arms length exchange, that's aggression. Government mandated pricing (of labor in this case) falls into that category. Corporations making what some call obscene profits and corporate boards agreeing to pay their CEO's huge bonuses do not.
Great post!
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:21 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu
When you take money from someone by something other than an arms length exchange, that's aggression. Government mandated pricing (of labor in this case) falls into that category. Corporations making what some call obscene profits and corporate boards agreeing to pay their CEO's huge bonuses do not.
Oh, I don't know about that. Jesus didn't care much for the moneylenders either. Have you seen our personal debt ratios lately?
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:29 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu
When you take money from someone by something other than an arms length exchange, that's aggression. Government mandated pricing (of labor in this case) falls into that category. Corporations making what some call obscene profits and corporate boards agreeing to pay their CEO's huge bonuses do not.
Is there any reprehensible action taken by the haves that you will not defend??
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:31 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins
Is there any reprehensible action taken by the haves that you will not defend??
No. I don't steal or allow others to.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:37 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrae
If your profit margin is $.02 on the dollar (net of course) and your labor cost goes up $.01 you have lost 1/2 your profit margin. You want to know why customer service has gone to hell in this country? Because the business owner has to try to maintain that $.02 margin and the only wiggle room they have is the labot cost. So, cut 10% of your work force and wind up with people standing in longer lines, employees who are expected to do 10% more work in the same amount of time become more frazzled and less likely to maintain a cheerful attitude, etc.

If most of the market is already paying above this false wage level, what is the point in raising it? It is a feel good political move to show how compassionate the pols are for the poor.

I really would appreciate an answer to my other question about market clearing price, I really am curious what this is and see an opportunity to learn. I may not have gone to college but I have a good head on my shoulders and still very much enjoy learning new things.
I did a google and the wikipedia entry looks okay for explanation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

If you know graphs, Price is the veritcal axis and Quantity is the horizontal axis. For the supply curve the quantity produced is proportional to the price, that is the higher the price the more that suppliers would provide for the market.

For the demand the curve the quantity that would be sold is inverse to price.

I did not mean to be a wiseguy, I often see people who should know better claim that pricing is a function of various expenses of production.

The supply curve will be different if costs of production go up, but for the most part the price is based on maximizing gross sales.
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:25 PM   #172
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I believe in the subjective value of prices.

If something costs $10,000 to make and no one wants it...it's worth nothing!
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:53 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
I believe in the subjective value of prices.

If something costs $10,000 to make and no one wants it...it's worth nothing!
that theory is less applicable the higher the inelasticity of the good you are dealing with. Petroleum appears these days to be highly inelastic and is likely one of the main culprits of the creeping inflationary pressures.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:03 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon
that theory is less applicable the higher the inelasticity of the good you are dealing with. Petroleum appears these days to be highly inelastic and is likely one of the main culprits of the creeping inflationary pressures.
Nope! That's a real price increase. Probably some inflation in there too. The fact that so many people want it just shows they value it. If it gets too high, people cut back...it comes down to what they want to do with their money. That's value again—subjective.

If someone came out with a product that did the same as petroleum, that was cleaner for a lot less money and no reliance on the ME what do you think would happen?

That's subjective.

Not saying the other things don't enter in from the view of the supplier or business owner trying to stay in business and keep a profit... but utlimately it comes down to what the consumer values, what he is willing to pay for something over other choices—all of which are subjective. Just because a lot of people value the same thing doesn't change this.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:22 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
Nope! That's a real price increase. Probably some inflation in there too. The fact that so many people want it just shows they value it. If it gets too high, people cut back...it comes down to what they want to do with their money. That's value again—subjective.

If someone came out with a product that did the same as petroleum, that was cleaner for a lot less money and no reliance on the ME what do you think would happen?

That's subjective.

Not saying the other things don't enter in from the view of the supplier or business owner trying to stay in business and keep a profit... but utlimately it comes down to what the consumer values, what he is willing to pay for something over other choices—all of which are subjective. Just because a lot of people value the same thing doesn't change this.
Yes, demand dictates price, but so does supply. Inflationary pressures can come from either side. I think this is becoming a tangent. The point I was trying to make is that inflation is not simply a result of decisions by the monetary authority. You don't even need a monetary authority to have inflation. Inflation is an increase in price of goods, typically measured in this country by the Consumer Price index. That's what Greenspan, and now Vernanke watches when making decisions about the money supply.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:34 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by jspchief
I don't have to manage one of those places to know that minimum wage isn't the standard, let alone a permanent wage.

Every fast food restaruant in this state is hiring at $7 per hour.
Then you live in an unusual state. The only reason they pay more than min wage out here is to get some anglo speaking workers. They load up with Mexican speaking employees for all the non-communication with customer positions at minimum wage.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:45 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon
Yes, demand dictates price, but so does supply. Inflationary pressures can come from either side. I think this is becoming a tangent. The point I was trying to make is that inflation is not simply a result of decisions by the monetary authority. You don't even need a monetary authority to have inflation. Inflation is an increase in price of goods, typically measured in this country by the Consumer Price index. That's what Greenspan, and now Vernanke watches when making decisions about the money supply.

Banyon, That's because you're a Keyenesian you buy into these definitions and theories. Inflation, the proper definition, is adding money to the supply. I just gave you the dictionary definition.

I know what Greenspan and Bernanke ( totally out to lunch this one is) believe and do... that they watch prices but that's because they're manipulating the economy through the money supply. Hence their micromanagement. And just because there is group thought agreement that this is necessary and right won't change reality. Those policies create the booms and busts we have and what you're witnessing is the distortions in the market that they create. Central banking is nothing more than Keyenesian socialism.
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:08 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefs Minor Satellite
If we raise the minimum wage are we only increasing the prevailing wage of the illegal immigrants?

Sounds very democratic to me.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage, rejecting an election-year proposal from Democrats for the first increase in nearly a decade.


The vote was 52-46, eight short of the 60 needed.


"I don't think the Republicans get it," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy,
D-Massachusetts, who backed a proposal for a three-step increase in the current wage floor to $7.25 an hour. The federal minimum wage has been fixed at $5.15 an hour since 1997.


Republican critics said the minimum wage was a job killer, not the boon to low-wage workers portrayed by Democrats.


"This is a classic debate between two different philosophies. One
philosophy believes in the marketplace, competition and entrepreneurship, and the second is a philosophy that says government knows best," said Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Georgia. He said France and Germany have high minimum wages but also high unemployment.


But Kennedy and other advocates of an increase said minimum wage workers have been without a raise since 1997.


Underscoring the political context of the debate, he said if Democrats win the Senate this November, a minimum wage increase will be one of the first pieces of legislation to be considered.


Have not read any other comments but there is good and bad of this, if minimum wage was raised the total cost of living would go up and most markets would raise the prices to affect that... But those people would have more pocketable money in the shorterm and pay a little bit more into the tax pool...
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Old 06-24-2006, 09:03 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by banyon
Oh, I don't know about that. Jesus didn't care much for the moneylenders either. Have you seen our personal debt ratios lately?
I don't understand the point here.
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Old 06-24-2006, 09:04 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins
Is there any reprehensible action taken by the haves that you will not defend??
Of course there is. I won't defend any reprehensible action by anyone, practically by definition.
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