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Old 06-21-2006, 04:27 PM  
Chiefs Minor Satellite Chiefs Minor Satellite is offline
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The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage

If we raise the minimum wage are we only increasing the prevailing wage of the illegal immigrants?

Sounds very democratic to me.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage, rejecting an election-year proposal from Democrats for the first increase in nearly a decade.


The vote was 52-46, eight short of the 60 needed.


"I don't think the Republicans get it," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy,
D-Massachusetts, who backed a proposal for a three-step increase in the current wage floor to $7.25 an hour. The federal minimum wage has been fixed at $5.15 an hour since 1997.


Republican critics said the minimum wage was a job killer, not the boon to low-wage workers portrayed by Democrats.


"This is a classic debate between two different philosophies. One
philosophy believes in the marketplace, competition and entrepreneurship, and the second is a philosophy that says government knows best," said Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Georgia. He said France and Germany have high minimum wages but also high unemployment.


But Kennedy and other advocates of an increase said minimum wage workers have been without a raise since 1997.


Underscoring the political context of the debate, he said if Democrats win the Senate this November, a minimum wage increase will be one of the first pieces of legislation to be considered.
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Old 06-24-2006, 12:11 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by patteeu
Of course there is. I won't defend any reprehensible action by anyone, practically by definition.
Careful there patteeu, that there question is a land-mine....gotta pull a Clinton or a lawyeresque tactic here: it depends on how you define the word "reprehensible."

Don't forget what is reprehensible to a commie,or a socialist is not reprehensible to those who value other systems.

I feel the whole reason why the right and the left don't get along is because they have different values.
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Old 06-25-2006, 01:30 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by recxjake
If you make minimum wage... you suck...
Not necessarily. I just returned from a trip to Richmond, Virginia. While driving around I couldn't help but notice how often I saw women walking to their fast-food jobs in the sweltering heat while dressed in their fast-food uniforms. It struck me how disproportionate it seemed that I rarely saw a man walking to work in his fast-food uniform. It also struck me that most of these women appeared to be age 25-35 and African American. I could only assume that they must also have children.

I'll bet all those African American women walking to their minimum wage fast-food jobs in their dark blue, brown, and black polyester uniforms just so they can feed their children agree with you 100%; they make minimum wage becuse they suck.
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Old 06-25-2006, 09:12 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by penchief

I'll bet all those African American women walking to their minimum wage fast-food jobs in their dark blue, brown, and black polyester uniforms just so they can feed their children agree with you 100%; they make minimum wage becuse they suck.
No, they would make more money if they sucked. A whore is more highly paid than a Whopper Flopper. If you really give a crap about African American women who walk to work in dark colored uniforms to feed imaginary children, ponder their skills and education. Ponder the High School drop out rate of African American women in Virginia. The answer is not artificialy raising the wages of unskilled positions, the answer is for our citizens to aquire those skills. Other than that a person is going to have to try to get higher than minimum wage with a strong work ethic and native intelligence, by earning promotions that bring better pay. Those jobs that pay more than minimum wage and offer benefits are available in the fast food industry. But you can't get them if you "suck".
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Old 06-25-2006, 11:07 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by listopencil
No, they would make more money if they sucked. A whore is more highly paid than a Whopper Flopper. If you really give a crap about African American women who walk to work in dark colored uniforms to feed imaginary children, ponder their skills and education. Ponder the High School drop out rate of African American women in Virginia. The answer is not artificialy raising the wages of unskilled positions, the answer is for our citizens to aquire those skills. Other than that a person is going to have to try to get higher than minimum wage with a strong work ethic and native intelligence, by earning promotions that bring better pay. Those jobs that pay more than minimum wage and offer benefits are available in the fast food industry. But you can't get them if you "suck".
I agree with much of what you say. I am an advocate of self-determination because I do believe that individuals are fundamentally equipped to overcome life's obstacles. I have lived the work ethic in my own life and understand very well it's importance. However, I also believe it would be shortsighted to overlook the fact that external factors can become artificial barriers to that end.

Acquiring skills often costs money. With the rising cost of a college education, it's hardly likely that even someone earning well over minimum wage could afford to send themselves or their kids to college.

I've also worked in fast food and the benefits weren't that good. Granted, it was two decades ago but I can't imagine that those corporations are voluntarily doing better these days. I might be suprised but I doubt they are not taking advantage of the current business climate.

My comments about what I observed in Richmond were just that....observations. I was pointing out that a lot of people are working minimum wage jobs because that is all they can find. Maybe they are stupid but maybe they are hard working and honest, too. Maybe they aren't stupid at all but are caught up in a self-perpetuating environment.

Maybe the poverty level should be lowered because we shouldn't have working families living below the poverty level, IMO.
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Old 06-26-2006, 07:02 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief
Acquiring skills often costs money. With the rising cost of a college education, it's hardly likely that even someone earning well over minimum wage could afford to send themselves or their kids to college.

We have massive amounts of govt aid for education, another factor that contributes to increasing tuition costs as it keeps demand high. Nevertheless, it's there and it's favorable to the poor as well. Not only that but if you've ever sent away for one of those govt grant books, those are particularly favorable to single moms. Ultimately, it's never the money. It lies within the person to a large degree. Ever hear,some of those people think? They're defeatists. They don't want a solution...they like having the problem.There were some in this thread.
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Old 06-26-2006, 10:08 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
Careful there patteeu, that there question is a land-mine....gotta pull a Clinton or a lawyeresque tactic here: it depends on how you define the word "reprehensible."

Don't forget what is reprehensible to a commie,or a socialist is not reprehensible to those who value other systems.

I feel the whole reason why the right and the left don't get along is because they have different values.
That was my point. I'm using my own definition of "reprehensible" knowing full well that it is likely to be a completely different definition than a socialist like 'Hamas' would use. If a member of the 'haves' molests the babysitter or if he drives off a bridge and forgets to go for help for the girl trapped in his car, I'll consider it "reprehensible" and condemn it. If he just makes a boatload of money in exchange for his honest work though, I'm OK with it.
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Old 06-26-2006, 10:54 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
We have massive amounts of govt aid for education, another factor that contributes to increasing tuition costs as it keeps demand high. Nevertheless, it's there and it's favorable to the poor as well. Not only that but if you've ever sent away for one of those govt grant books, those are particularly favorable to single moms. Ultimately, it's never the money. It lies within the person to a large degree. Ever hear,some of those people think? They're defeatists. They don't want a solution...they like having the problem.There were some in this thread.
Much of that is true but at the same time that college costs are skyrocketing those financial aid programs you mention are also getting squeezed. Plus, interests rates are going up on student loans. Add to that lower wages and lessening benefits, and it will become increasingly more difficult for middle and lower class citizens to take advantage of a college education. Even if they are lucky enough to get a college degree most people will end up working for subpar wages while paying back their loans for half their lives. If Cheneyburton gets it's way most 4-year grads will be flipping whoppers, anyway.

IMO, the gap between those who have much and those who have little is only compounded when access to education and health care is determined by privelege. Equal opportunity and equal access are two important ideals to a free and democratic society, IMO.

What is currently happening in this country appears to be a rolling back of equal opportunity and equal access in favor of corporate greed and the consolodation of political and economic power, IMO.
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Old 06-26-2006, 11:24 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by penchief
Much of that is true but at the same time that college costs are skyrocketing those financial aid programs you mention are also getting squeezed. Plus, interests rates are going up on student loans. Add to that lower wages and lessening benefits, and it will become increasingly more difficult for middle and lower class citizens to take advantage of a college education. Even if they are lucky enough to get a college degree most people will end up working for subpar wages while paying back their loans for half their lives. If Cheneyburton gets it's way most 4-year grads will be flipping whoppers, anyway.

IMO, the gap between those who have much and those who have little is only compounded when access to education and health care is determined by privelege. Equal opportunity and equal access are two important ideals to a free and democratic society, IMO.

What is currently happening in this country appears to be a rolling back of equal opportunity and equal access in favor of corporate greed and the consolodation of political and economic power, IMO.
I agree with you penchief, that those things are happening in this country, but it's not just because of corporations and the Chenyburton's of this world. It is happening as we become an increasingly socialist state...this has always created more poverty and worse conditions. Wage and price controls are socialism. Nafta, Gatt, Cafta, Ftaa etc and all such fake free-trade treaties are simply devices for redistributing America's wealth while are protectionist for certain corporations. They are also loaded with subsidies. It all sounds compassionate on paper but it doesn't work. And don't kid yourself, the big corporations like it as it makes it just that more difficult for start-ups and the smaller guy to compete against them. Welcome to Third-Way Socialism. (corporate). However, more people are going to college than ever before.
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Old 06-26-2006, 01:27 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by mikey23545
Work your way up like a decent Republican would, you whiny little sniveler.

This is such a straw man, it is a natural issue for Dems to take up. Almost no one works for minimum wage except college kids and some entry level wage earners. If you are over 20 years old and making minimum wage, the problem is with you, not some Buy-a-vote legislation.
Just like Christianity being "under attack".

Speaking of "buy-a-vote" legislation, Republicans make promises relating to god, guns, and gays, but never, ever deliver. Gets 'em elected, though.
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Old 06-26-2006, 02:14 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
I agree with you penchief, that those things are happening in this country, but it's not just because of corporations and the Chenyburton's of this world. It is happening as we become an increasingly socialist state...this has always created more poverty and worse conditions. Wage and price controls are socialism. Nafta, Gatt, Cafta, Ftaa etc and all such fake free-trade treaties are simply devices for redistributing America's wealth while are protectionist for certain corporations. They are also loaded with subsidies. It all sounds compassionate on paper but it doesn't work. And don't kid yourself, the big corporations like it as it makes it just that more difficult for start-ups and the smaller guy to compete against them. Welcome to Third-Way Socialism. (corporate). However, more people are going to college than ever before.
Was it socialism in early 20th century America that promoted the exploitation of American workers and their families? I don't think so. I think the conditions that early industrialists forced upon our citizens during that era created an environment that fertilized the socialist movement in this country.

IMO, this administration has been tasked to restore the status quo that existed before worker rights and protections took hold. And they're doing a mighty fine job of it.
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Old 06-26-2006, 02:46 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penchief
Was it socialism in early 20th century America that promoted the exploitation of American workers and their families? I don't think so. I think the conditions that early industrialists forced upon our citizens during that era created an environment that fertilized the socialist movement in this country.
I'll agree that savage management was the other extreme, although some claims were exaggerated. I don't recommend no laws at all to protect workers from certain unfairnesses. But economic fascism, socialism or communism are still not workable solutions and to add 70-80 years of these to the mix continuously just brings about a day or reckoning sooner or later. I say those days are upon us.

I mean what would you rather have: bones thrown to the lowest rung workers permanently or an environment that has opportunities so that those who will improve themselves or take risks have some incentive to do so?


Quote:
IMO, this administration has been tasked to restore the status quo that existed before worker rights and protections took hold. And they're doing a mighty fine job of it.
Such as?
I don't ask that sarcastically. It's just when you make such an allegation with no specifics it's hard to see if I agree with you or not.

What worker's rights and protections has he taken away?
And what do you mean by worker's rights?

I see Bush as every bit a socialist, including being a corporate one too, as any previous democrat. In fact I read a great article that made a claim that we get more of this type of legislation under a Republican president than a Democratic one because people's guards are down. It had lots of specifics in it too. Sad to say but it seems true.

Republican and Democrat don't mean anything anymore. More socialism becomes more inevitable each decade. The two parties are only used to create dialetical materialism arguments: thesis - anti-thesis. In the end we wind up with Third Way Socialism. This just leaves the grass roots members or each party feeling alienated imo. This is today's status-quo.
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Old 06-26-2006, 02:49 PM   #192
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Everyone who has ever had a class in economics knows that a minumim wage reduces employment. That argument aside, even if you don't care about the reduction in employment, why would the minimum wage be at the federal level than the state level? First off, wages very across the country. Secondly, it may be popular in some states -- if they want to enact such idiocy, let them. Why try impose to it on everyone? If Massachusetts, Rhode Island, or NY wants a $50 min wage, let them try it...

Maybe we can reduce illegal immigration if we just convince Mexico to institute a high min. wage, right? That's the only reason they're not rich, right? They lack progressive legislation.

Yes, there are poor people. I just don't see who liberals have anything to add to the debate about it, though. People are poor because for behavioral reasons. The key to reducing poverty is changing the behavior of the underclass. And I'm not saying they are necessarily morally culpable for their behavior; that doesn't matter one way or another. Somehow changing the attitude among the black youth that doing well is school doesn't make you a sell-out "Uncle Tom" and crap like that is the key. The black ghetto culture is one of the major problems, as well as terrible inner-city schools (despite massive funding, they still are a joke).

I'm just so sick of liberals trying to claim the moral high ground with policies such as the min wage which make the poor worse off. If you care about the poor, how about look at the "root causes"?
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Old 06-26-2006, 02:54 PM   #193
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Fringe, I brought the state versus federal level up for minimum wage on another board. Someone corrected me on the fact that states that have min wage ( we had it on a referendum question in Florida and it passed...things like that usually do) can only apply it to businesses that are Florida based only but not others. That it did not apply to businesses that were in many states. I asked how this worked and haven't received a response yet. I am assuming for now, that this may have to do with interstate commerce laws. I know the fed congress has that power. If anyone can clue me in on specifics I'd appreciate. I don't feel like looking it up.
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Old 06-26-2006, 03:04 PM   #194
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New York does have it's own minimum wage which is higher than the federal minimum wage. I think it's supposed to go up another dollar next year, too.
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Old 06-26-2006, 03:06 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
Fringe, I brought the state versus federal level up for minimum wage on another board. Someone corrected me on the fact that states that have min wage ( we had it on a referendum question in Florida and it passed...things like that usually do) can only apply it to businesses that are Florida based only but not others. That it did not apply to businesses that were in many states. I asked how this worked and haven't received a response yet. I am assuming for now, that this may have to do with interstate commerce laws. I know the fed congress has that power. If anyone can clue me in on specifics I'd appreciate. I don't feel like looking it up.
That's not right.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm
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