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Old 06-21-2006, 04:27 PM  
Chiefs Minor Satellite Chiefs Minor Satellite is offline
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The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage

If we raise the minimum wage are we only increasing the prevailing wage of the illegal immigrants?

Sounds very democratic to me.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage, rejecting an election-year proposal from Democrats for the first increase in nearly a decade.


The vote was 52-46, eight short of the 60 needed.


"I don't think the Republicans get it," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy,
D-Massachusetts, who backed a proposal for a three-step increase in the current wage floor to $7.25 an hour. The federal minimum wage has been fixed at $5.15 an hour since 1997.


Republican critics said the minimum wage was a job killer, not the boon to low-wage workers portrayed by Democrats.


"This is a classic debate between two different philosophies. One
philosophy believes in the marketplace, competition and entrepreneurship, and the second is a philosophy that says government knows best," said Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Georgia. He said France and Germany have high minimum wages but also high unemployment.


But Kennedy and other advocates of an increase said minimum wage workers have been without a raise since 1997.


Underscoring the political context of the debate, he said if Democrats win the Senate this November, a minimum wage increase will be one of the first pieces of legislation to be considered.
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Old 06-21-2006, 08:53 PM   #31
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Minimum wage destroys jobs. It mostly affects teen workers today. If you don't have skill or prior education, there are jobs that people don't like or aren't willing to do that pay more: like a garbage collector, bartendar or waiter/waitress. There are more...or you could offer a service to people on things they don't want to do or have the time. My cousin lost his job, not high paying at all...went out and cleaned houses makes $1500 a week and is now adding people under him. Other than that, one can always improve oneself.

There is also sales. The top paying job in the country if you're good at it.
Can always learn to get good at it.

The job as a technician that did not pay you well just means it was not high enough demand for it to pay you more.
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Old 06-21-2006, 08:57 PM   #32
Hydrae Hydrae is offline
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Originally Posted by Moooo
I had to look for 3 months to find a job that would pay me 7 dollars. I was a pharmacy technician with 2 years experience, and was only getting $6 at one of my last jobs. Worked in a physical therapy clinic and made $6.50.

But what you're saying is you trust big business to provide enough for the people they employ. Where I am, the most a person could make without prior skill or education is 7 bucks starting out. That's not enough, and I know that if they upped the minimum wage, that would start to go up just due to competition.
Most jobs that pay minimum wage do so to allow a profit margin while still maintaining the $.99 menu items. I know, I worked that industry for 15 years. The only flexible item in the budget of most restaurants is labor cost. When you raise the cost of that labor, their end product prices have to go up as well or they shut the doors and noone makes anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moooo
For the minimum wage to stay this low, is basically our government saying they feel its sufficient income to sustain food, water and shelter for someone. And then people wonder why some stay on government assistance and keep having children instead of workng. Its cause we reward people more for staying home, than we do for getting a job. If our minimum wage offered more for people than sitting on their butt, then maybe this wouldn't be a problem.

Moooo
The question of welfare is an entirely different subject. The fact that people can sit on their butts and get money for nothing is one of the bigger social problems we have in this country IMO. Some people need help, I do not deny that. But there are other ways than to force me to support them through my taxes to get this accomplished.

Sorry, minimum wage and welfare are two of my biggest hot button topics in the political arena.
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Old 06-21-2006, 08:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
Minimum wage destroys jobs. It mostly affects teen workers today. If you don't have skill or prior education, there are jobs that people don't like or aren't willing to do that pay more: like a garbage collector, bartendar or waiter/waitress. There are more...or you could offer a service to people on things they don't want to do or have the time. My cousin lost his job, not high paying at all...went out and cleaned houses makes $1500 a week and is now adding people under him. Other than that, one can always improve oneself.

There is also sales. The top paying job in the country if you're good at it.
Can always learn to get good at it.
Name a place where you could get a job as a bartender without school or experience. I didn't apply for bartender jobs because I was too young at the time, but I applied at 5 waiter jobs and got nothing (even though they have a different minimum wage than regular workers).

You're looking at it on an individualistic level. You're right, ANYONE can find a great job that pays a lot if they look long enough, but EVERYONE can't. Minimum wage is not a job-killer, it promotes competition between possible employees and gives them incentive to perform their job well.

Besides, minimum wage should stay constant with the rate of the dollar. Its going to need to go up naturally, yet every time it gets so low its impractical, people complain.

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Old 06-21-2006, 08:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins
Obviously you've never filled out a 1090 then or talked to a tax lawyer. But go ahead, keep telling yourself that you aren't full of shit.
You know, you seem to be someone that feels that he knows everything under the sun. I don't fill out 1090's I hire out of work college graduates to do that for me. You looking for a job?

I am issued the 1099 at the end of the year. I have my accountant get my taxes ready for filing. I pay quarterly estimates just like every other self employed American.

I've been audited 4 times in the past 7 years and have never had to pay any fines. I'd say that makes me one of the people in the country that handles his taxes properly.

Always remember 40% of 10 is not 6.5
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:00 PM   #35
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
Minimum wage destroys jobs. It mostly affects teen workers today. If you don't have skill or prior education, there are jobs that people don't like or aren't willing to do that pay more: like a garbage collector, bartendar or waiter/waitress. There are more...or you could offer a service to people on things they don't want to do or have the time. My cousin lost his job, not high paying at all...went out and cleaned houses makes $1500 a week and is now adding people under him. Other than that, one can always improve oneself.

There is also sales. The top paying job in the country if you're good at it.
Can always learn to get good at it.

The job as a technician that did not pay you well just means it was not high enough demand for it to pay you more.
Of course!! Everyone can make it here if they just try hard enough. It's the American Dream everyone!!. What flavor is the Kool-Aid these days?

Sales jobs are predicated upon lying: They're easy to do if you are a sociopath, or if you don't know enough to not care. If you actually happen to sell a product that helps people, be rest assured, it will generally (see not always) be marked up to the point where many, many people cannot afford it (case in point: HIV Meds)

Guy comes home with his $500 paycheck

Guy: Hey honey, I don't think we're going to be able to pay all of our bills.
Wifeon't worry, it's just because your job isn't in high enough demand.
Guy: Oh, ok. I'll just go out and start work on flux capacitors tomorrow.

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Old 06-21-2006, 09:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Hydrae
As ssoon as you raise the cost of labor, the cost of the end product will go up accordingly. There is no increase in the buying power for those at minimum wage, there is a loss of buying power for everyone else who doesn't get a $2.00 an hour bump mandated by the governement.

Don't know about where you are but here in Austin it is almost impossible to find a job that pays minimum wage. The market is taking care of itself just fine when starting wages for fast food are around $7.00 an hour.
For someone that claims to favor the market, your analysis of the price of goods sold mocks universal priniciples of microeconmics accepted by economists of any political ideology.

If you have a microeconomics text, you need to review pricing, supply and demand curves and market clearing price.

If the costs of production rise, that does not really impact the market clearing price, unless you are dealing with businesspeople that do not know how to price to maximize profit.

If the costs of production make it so that the market clearing price results in a net loss, you might see production of that good ceased by that producer unless there are reasons to stay in the game long term until it becomes profitable again.

Anyway, your analysis is political piffle and not real economic behavior.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moooo
Name a place where you could get a job as a bartender without school or experience. I didn't apply for bartender jobs because I was too young at the time, but I applied at 5 waiter jobs and got nothing (even though they have a different minimum wage than regular workers)

You're looking at it on an individualistic level.... Minimum wage is not a job-killer, it promotes competition between possible employees and gives them incentive to perform their job well.

Moooo

You can do bartending training in 40 hours.


Quote:
You're right, ANYONE can find a great job that pays a lot if they look long enough, but EVERYONE can't.
Wellif you believe that than I guess you can't.

because...

Those who believe they can...can!
If you are defeated in spirit before you try you'll never win.
Change your thoughts and your actions should follow.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:03 PM   #38
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by Chiefs Minor Satellite
You know, you seem to be someone that feels that he knows everything under the sun. I don't fill out 1090's I hire out of work college graduates to do that for me. You looking for a job?

I am issued the 1099 at the end of the year. I have my accountant get my taxes ready for filing. I pay quarterly estimates just like every other self employed American.

I've been audited 4 times in the past 7 years and have never had to pay any fines. I'd say that makes me one of the people in the country that handles his taxes properly.

Always remember 40% of 10 is not 6.5
How many times do I have to tell you this: 6.5 is going to be taxed at around a 15% rate=a little less than 6/hour

60 percent of 10 is 6/hour.

Hooked on Fonix yet??
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
Wellif you believe that than I guess you can't.

because...

Those who believe they can...can!
If you are defeated in spirit before you try you'll never win.
Change your thoughts and your actions should follow.
That's nice and all for me or you, but there are jobs out there that pay only 5.15 an hour. Someone HAS to take them, who is it going to be? There are more minimum-wage jobs than there are dependants out there. Mathematically, someone who is an independant has to take one of these jobs...

By increasing the minimum wage, you are offering these people incentive to get a job instead of living off the fat of the land.

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Old 06-21-2006, 09:08 PM   #40
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
You can do bartending training in 40 hours.



Wellif you believe that than I guess you can't.

because...

Those who believe they can...can!
If you are defeated in spirit before you try you'll never win.
Change your thoughts and your actions should follow.
I inquired to do bartender training this summer
Cost for 40 hours= 750 dollars.

Just let me look underneath my couch cushions. You are like a Tony Robbins tape that keeps playing over and over and over...
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:10 PM   #41
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins
I inquired to do bartender training this summer
Cost for 40 hours= 750 dollars.

Just let me look underneath my couch cushions. You are like a Tony Robbins tape that keeps playing over and over and over...
That's nothing. And it will pay itself back in one week. Take a loan.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:11 PM   #42
Hydrae Hydrae is offline
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Originally Posted by jettio
For someone that claims to favor the market, your analysis of the price of goods sold mocks universal priniciples of microeconmics accepted by economists of any political ideology.

If you have a microeconomics text, you need to review pricing, supply and demand curves and market clearing price.

If the costs of production rise, that does not really impact the market clearing price, unless you are dealing with businesspeople that do not know how to price to maximize profit.

If the costs of production make it so that the market clearing price results in a net loss, you might see production of that good ceased by that producer unless there are reasons to stay in the game long term until it becomes profitable again.

Anyway, your analysis is political piffle and not real economic behavior.
Well, since I never went to college, I have never taken a microeconomics course. I speak from my experiences in the real world since I started my first job in 1976. So I do not even know what you mean by "market clearing price." Perhaps you can educate me on how a company that is in stiff competition and thus keeps it's prices as low as possible to remain in the market can have it's costs raised and still survive with its' profit in place.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:11 PM   #43
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That's nothing. And it will pay itself back in one week. Take a loan.
Because god knows, there's nothing like the bar scene in a college town during summer break...of course I can easily bartend during the semester since I'm only taking 12 hours of grad courses and teaching two comp classes, while also working on my thesis and Ph.D applications.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:13 PM   #44
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by Moooo
That's nice and all for me or you, but there are jobs out there that pay only 5.15 an hour. Someone HAS to take them, who is it going to be? There are more minimum-wage jobs than there are dependants out there. Mathematically, someone who is an independant has to take one of these jobs...

By increasing the minimum wage, you are offering these people incentive to get a job instead of living off the fat of the land.

Moooo
Correct me if I am wrong...but I thought it was the Mexican immigrants that are doing these jobs because there are no Americans who want to do them?

Other than that...how bout being a waiter?

I waitressed through school and I always had enough money. Not rich but enough.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:14 PM   #45
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Because god knows, there's nothing like the bar scene in a college town during summer break...of course I can easily bartend during the semester since I'm only taking 12 hours of grad courses and teaching two comp classes, while also working on my thesis and Ph.D applications.
Quite a few of my students bartend. Some take a few less courses. Of course it takes them longer to complete.
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