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Old 06-21-2006, 04:27 PM  
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The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage

If we raise the minimum wage are we only increasing the prevailing wage of the illegal immigrants?

Sounds very democratic to me.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Republican-controlled Senate refused Wednesday to raise the minimum wage, rejecting an election-year proposal from Democrats for the first increase in nearly a decade.


The vote was 52-46, eight short of the 60 needed.


"I don't think the Republicans get it," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy,
D-Massachusetts, who backed a proposal for a three-step increase in the current wage floor to $7.25 an hour. The federal minimum wage has been fixed at $5.15 an hour since 1997.


Republican critics said the minimum wage was a job killer, not the boon to low-wage workers portrayed by Democrats.


"This is a classic debate between two different philosophies. One
philosophy believes in the marketplace, competition and entrepreneurship, and the second is a philosophy that says government knows best," said Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Georgia. He said France and Germany have high minimum wages but also high unemployment.


But Kennedy and other advocates of an increase said minimum wage workers have been without a raise since 1997.


Underscoring the political context of the debate, he said if Democrats win the Senate this November, a minimum wage increase will be one of the first pieces of legislation to be considered.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:06 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil
Yep, that's the real point here.
Except there is no mathematical or economic reason why "x" increase in pay would mandate that the price of the product is raised "x"+5%.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:07 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil
When the minimum wage went up quite a while ago (I don't remember the year, it was before '97) I worked for Taco Bell Corporate and they reacted by changing the way they prepped food. They called it K Minus or Quick Prep and the idea was to cut down on the number of labor hours needed to get raw product ready and to concentrate the labor dollars in the front of the store instead. They did this because they knew that they couldn't afford to have as many people working per hour as they had in the past. This is one way that companies deal with raises in the Minimum Wage. They cut back on the total number of jobs available. This is also why Taco Bell food doesn't taste as good as it used to.
I used to work for Taco Bell all through HS and college and for a few years was manager of a Taco Bell in OP. The food was a hell of lot better when we made stuff fresh, the quick prep shit is sucks.

Anyway my feeling on this it is a damn shame that the Senate didn't pass this bill. There is alot more people making minimum wage than most of you think and IMHO the minimum wage should be at least $8 /hr.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:07 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moooo
My point still remains. The economy might recieve a bump in the bottom line of a lot of prices, but it puts money in the hands of those who need it.

In all, it helps closen the gap between the haves and havenots, which in this country is greatly needed.

Moooo
The only experience I've had in a minimum wage environment (8.5 years) didn't turn out that way. I had to get by with fewer employees and prices went up across the board.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:08 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by jspchief
Raised labor costs are going to get passed to the consumer.

You can bitch about greedy CEOs and business owners, but the fact remains they are going to maintain their profit margin. A raised minimum wage isn't going to make them any less greedy.

It does little good to put an extra $20 in the hands of the little guy if doing so makes his cost of living go up by $21.
Right, but since not everyone will be affected by the minimum wage, the amount cost of living will go up will still be less than the amount minimum wage goes up. Even if it made things go up across the board 5%, it still doesn't equal the 40% increase people making minumum wage would see. And there's no way it would go up 40%, there's not enough people making it to influence our economy that way. If you figure 10% of people make minimum wage, that would be the equvelant of about less than 5% of the total amount of dollars made by Americans.

I'm well aware of the downside. The higher cost of living will not fall on those making minimum wage, it will fall on the middle class, and higher-up working class. That's the whole point, the middle and upper guys take a hit for the little guy. If you don't like the principle that's fine, but don't disguise it by saying it won't work.

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Old 06-21-2006, 10:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moooo
Only certain people equate money made to how well they do their job. Some people will do the same work when getting paid 5 as they do 10.

Moooo
I'm not sure how that relates to my point.

I'm not claiming that employers pay more because they think it make employees work harder. I'm saying that employers appreciate good workers enough that they will reward them in hopes of keeping them.

You make it sound like the world is full of slave driving employers, looking for the most work for the cheapest price. The reality is most employers are happy to have anybody at all, and don't mind paying the good ones respectable wages.

If you're struggling through a series of minimum wage jobs, you're what my father used to refer to as the "5% of the workforce that is unemployable". Jobs are out there to be had. If someone is struggling to find a good one, it's likely because they are part of the loser segment of America.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by jspchief
I'm not sure how that relates to my point.

I'm not claiming that employers pay more because they think it make employees work harder. I'm saying that employers appreciate good workers enough that they will reward them in hopes of keeping them.

You make it sound like the world is full of slave driving employers, looking for the most work for the cheapest price. The reality is most employers are happy to have anybody at all, and don't mind paying the good ones respectable wages.

If you're struggling through a series of minimum wage jobs, you're what my father used to refer to as the "5% of the workforce that is unemployable". Jobs are out there to be had. If someone is struggling to find a good one, it's likely because they are part of the loser segment of America.
I don't believe that. It may be the case in a smaller business, but 60% of all American jobs are big business, where the people dictating people's pay are being told by a guy in some other place what to do. A company's only job is to make money. And the only reason they pay more is competition, which in itself is not sufficient to regulate wage.

And please define, "loser." Its a very vague term.

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Old 06-21-2006, 10:10 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler
I used to work for Taco Bell all through HS and college and for a few years was manager of a Taco Bell in OP. The food was a hell of lot better when we made stuff fresh, the quick prep shit is sucks.

Anyway my feeling on this it is a damn shame that the Senate didn't pass this bill. There is alot more people making minimum wage than most of you think and IMHO the minimum wage should be at least $8 /hr.

I live in a dinky little town in Northern California where a huge number of people have minimum wage jobs. The ones who suffer are parents. Both parents can work at minimum wage and it's still incredibly hard to get by for them. I just question the effect on inflation it would have.

And you're right, the quick prep stuff is shit compared to the old stuff.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:10 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moooo
. That's the whole point, the middle and upper guys take a hit for the little guy. If you don't like the principle that's fine, but don't disguise it by saying it won't work.

Moooo
But that undermines the very nature of their argument, which is thinly veiled class warfare based on a premise of greed and selfishness.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:13 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspchief
I'm not sure how that relates to my point.


If you're struggling through a series of minimum wage jobs, you're what my father used to refer to as the "5% of the workforce that is unemployable". Jobs are out there to be had. If someone is struggling to find a good one, it's likely because they are part of the loser segment of America.



I have to agree with you. I started at Taco Bell as a 40 hour/week fryer and quit as a GM, would have been running multiple units shortly if I had stayed on.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:13 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moooo
I don't believe that. It may be the case in a smaller business, but 60% of all American jobs are big business, where the people dictating people's pay are being told by a guy in some other place what to do. A company's only job is to make money. And the only reason they pay more is competition, which in itself is not sufficient to regulate wage.

And please define, "loser." Its a very vague term.

Moooo

No most businesses in America are small businesses.
If a complahy did not make money, you wouldn't even have a job....you better hope they make money. I doubt big business is hurt as much as small business with such legislation.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:14 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins
And yet, there are still families living 10 to a home with dirt floors in said town

Edit: Third World was a bit of a misnomer b/c it harkens up images of 15 cents/day. However, I guarantee that the Mexicans at PSF are making quite a bit less than the whites there.
What you don't understand is these Mexicans spent all of their lives living ten to a house with dirt floors in Mexico. They do it by choice, usually sending a large portion of the money they would have spent on upscale living back to Mexico to support family or to pay to get family smuggled across.

You look at them and think they must be living in misery, meanwhile they are calling to the one phone in their hometown in Oaxaca to tell their old neighbor how good life is in the US.

Are the mexicans making less then the whites? Probably. Are they making less than minimum wage? Probably not.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:14 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jspchief
I'm not sure how that relates to my point.

I'm not claiming that employers pay more because they think it make employees work harder. I'm saying that employers appreciate good workers enough that they will reward them in hopes of keeping them.

You make it sound like the world is full of slave driving employers, looking for the most work for the cheapest price. The reality is most employers are happy to have anybody at all, and don't mind paying the good ones respectable wages.

If you're struggling through a series of minimum wage jobs, you're what my father used to refer to as the "5% of the workforce that is unemployable". Jobs are out there to be had. If someone is struggling to find a good one, it's likely because they are part of the loser segment of America.


I graduated college and went to work for the local sheriff's office as a deputy making $6 an hour while supporting my wife going to college and raising a newborn. I brought home $920 a month. Could you live on $920 a month?

Luckily now I have 2 college degrees and I make good money but those were some rough ****ing times.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:15 PM   #103
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Jobs are out there to be had. If someone is struggling to find a good one, it's likely because they are part of the loser segment of America.
Precisely. Same thought entered my head too.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:16 PM   #104
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Luckily now I have 2 college degrees and I make good money but those were some rough ****ing times.
I think most people have gone through such times.
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:16 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins
But that undermines the very nature of their argument, which is thinly veiled class warfare based on a premise of greed and selfishness.
It's reality bub. If you think the greedy business owners are suddenly going to become less greedy, you're living in candyland. Welcome to the world of capitalism.
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