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View Poll Results: If you had to choose only one of these, which would it be?
Democracy 20 35.09%
Free market capitalism 37 64.91%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-06-2007, 03:03 PM  
jAZ jAZ is offline
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If you were forced to choose between democray and free market capitalism...

... which would it be?

I know it may seem like an odd juxtaposition of beliefs that in this country typically go hand in hand... but I've noticed a trend in discussions lately that caused me to consider the question in this way.

Seems like an interesting discussion.

If you were forced to choose between living in a society defined by democracy (but for instance, the people voted for communism/socialism) or one defined by capitalism (but public policy is dictated by an autocratic government) which would you choose and why?
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:31 PM   #136
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Brilliant. A mouthpiece that doesn't ever talk. You nailed it.
You make Comrade Crapksi look sane. Congratulations.
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:39 PM   #137
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The shrinking middle class is making less money than they did 8 years ago! What a transformation!
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yeah, what a transformation! The guy is nothing but Republican Lite.
When it comes to labor issues, that's pretty much true, both of Dems and Obama. They refused to really do anything about card check.

However, beyond that, and other than adopt policies of the opposition, I'm curious what Obama could have done but refused to do on this front.
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:08 PM   #138
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Old 06-23-2013, 10:12 PM   #139
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Brilliant. A mouthpiece that doesn't ever talk. You nailed it.
Have you started your petition to get Obama on Mt. Rushmore yet, or are you feeling those guys are beneath him?
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:56 PM   #140
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Well, it sure as hell wasn't the free market that gave us Jim Crow. That was all government.
Nothing but corruption of government that found ways to disfranchise African Americans allowed Jim Crow to pass. As the following graph of voter participation percent shows:



http://epic.org/privacy/voting/register/intro_c.html


It was also the government that ended Jim Crow.

/I thought Paul was for the state level government that gave us Jim Crow
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:08 PM   #141
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It would of died out just as soon as it was economically unviable or socially repellent. Both of which would of happened in the late 1800s.



Culture and society don't always do what makes the most economic sense. If you looked at the richest parts of the world circa the 1860s, the places that were the richest didn't have slavery and were industrialized. In fact they hadn't had slavery or serfdom for decades or centuries. The reason why slavery continued to exist was societal momentum due to the fact when the America's were first settled there was a lack of population to do the work to cash in on tobacco and later cotton. Once that population mark was hit, slavery became increasingly less profitable. In fact slavery was becoming increasingly less common in areas of the south that weren't growing cotton because having a slave was a net drain compared to hiring seasonal workers or sharecroppers.
Completely not true.



The American slave trade was very profitable up to the war. In fact, the raising and selling of slaves within America earned more money than cotton and was a major reason Southern States wish to extend slavery westward.

Slaves were just another commodity being sold on the free market. And it earned those few wealthy landowners a lot of money.

All the free markets needs is the right society and slavery is perfectly acceptable.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:39 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Completely not true.



The American slave trade was very profitable up to the war. In fact, the raising and selling of slaves within America earned more money than cotton and was a major reason Southern States wish to extend slavery westward.

Slaves were just another commodity being sold on the free market. And it earned those few wealthy landowners a lot of money.

All the free markets needs is the right society and slavery is perfectly acceptable.
I pointed out in this thread earlier, that slavery was declining in this country in the later 18th century early 19th. Due to the development of the cotton gin, a need for a huge amount of cotton pickers and processors were needed to keep up with the gin's automation. It was after the 19th century that mechanized cotton pickers developed. The first ones only replaced forty hand laborers but that increased later. Then this new invention, the cotton picker, led to fear over the south that it would replace jobs. So slavery would have eventually been replaced by the market, but just later.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:43 PM   #143
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I am checking those population numbers on slaves. Be back.

But you have to mention using such numbers that the north did away with their slavery. The South had their capital tied up in slaves so they were never able to build textile mills.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:00 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post

The American slave trade was very profitable up to the war. In fact, the raising and selling of slaves within America earned more money than cotton and was a major reason Southern States wish to extend slavery westward.

Slaves were just another commodity being sold on the free market. And it earned those few wealthy landowners a lot of money.

All the free markets needs is the right society and slavery is perfectly acceptable.
It's true that mechanization/automation would have eliminated a substantial amount of labor (to BEP's point), but I recall a story about Thomas Jefferson regarding slavery. He had noticed over time that there was a long term benefit in maintaining a slave population on his property. I think it counted on slave births, it's been a while since I read the story. Anyway he calculated something like a 4% increase in the value of his slaves over time. Being a slaver was a sustainable, profitable business. Still, all democracy needs is a loose definition of what a "citizen" is and slavery is perfectly acceptable as well.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:02 PM   #145
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I am checking those population numbers on slaves. Be back.

But you have to mention using such numbers that the north did away with their slavery. The South had their capital tied up in slaves so they were never able to build textile mills.
I'm going to have to find that article about Thomas Jefferson again. There was an explanation regarding his way of running a very profitable business using slaves that did not rely on agriculture. As I recall it was a nail factory.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:03 PM   #146
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Here it is:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...169780996.html

Quite an interesting article.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:14 PM   #147
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Interesting listo. Guess the first census was 1790, so too hard to get earlier numbers. Plus early census has lost data from quite a few states. I think those numbers still show that the cotton gin drove the need for more slaves. Up to then, though, tobacco and indigo were really the cash crop of the south, but tobacco wasn't easy to grow. It wore out the soil and had to rest every so many years. Not so with cotton, which could grow on nutrient depleted land anywhere. So it was due to this that cotton became the number one cash crop for the south. Then they needed more land to grow...which led to other things.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:24 PM   #148
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Also, listo, let's not Photoshop some of those Civil War generals that owned slaves while claiming they were fighting to free the slaves.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:25 PM   #149
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Also, listo, let's not Photoshop some of those Civil War generals that owned slaves while claiming they were fighting to free the slaves.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:32 PM   #150
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It's true that mechanization/automation would have eliminated a substantial amount of labor (to BEP's point), but I recall a story about Thomas Jefferson regarding slavery. He had noticed over time that there was a long term benefit in maintaining a slave population on his property. I think it counted on slave births, it's been a while since I read the story. Anyway he calculated something like a 4% increase in the value of his slaves over time. Being a slaver was a sustainable, profitable business. Still, all democracy needs is a loose definition of what a "citizen" is and slavery is perfectly acceptable as well.
Seriously...

Slavery is a human institution that is as old as history itself and is still rampant in today's world. It has nothing to do with economic systems or form of government and everything to do with the morality of those who make decisions... be it the people united, representatives, or a king. Even then there's a black market...

Slavery and war are age old human institutions that will never go away.
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