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View Poll Results: If you had to choose only one of these, which would it be?
Democracy 20 35.09%
Free market capitalism 37 64.91%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-06-2007, 03:03 PM  
jAZ jAZ is offline
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If you were forced to choose between democray and free market capitalism...

... which would it be?

I know it may seem like an odd juxtaposition of beliefs that in this country typically go hand in hand... but I've noticed a trend in discussions lately that caused me to consider the question in this way.

Seems like an interesting discussion.

If you were forced to choose between living in a society defined by democracy (but for instance, the people voted for communism/socialism) or one defined by capitalism (but public policy is dictated by an autocratic government) which would you choose and why?
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:24 AM   #76
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Any nation's slavery that ended after it ended in the US cannot be said to have happened in a vaccum and occurred peacefully solely because of market forces without factoring in them learning from the mistakes of our Civil War.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:44 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade Crapski View Post
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville
Why would you post a fake quote and then link to the article which confirms that its fake?
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:47 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Why would you post a fake quote and then link to the article which confirms that its fake?
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Comrade Crapski

OK, I'll take credit for it then.

Better?
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:03 AM   #79
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The US Constitution does NOT contain the word DEMOCRACY anywhere but it does say mandate and say the following:
“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a republican form of government.”


Federalist, No. 10:
James Madison

“… democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they are violent in their deaths.”

Virginia’s Edmund Randolph

Participant at 1787 Constitutional Convention said the purpose of their convention in Philly was
“to provide a cure for the evils under which the United States labored; that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and trials of democracy….”
John Adams
“Democracy never lasts long,” he noted. “It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself.” Adams
“There was never a democracy that ‘did not commit suicide.’”


Congressman Fisher Ames from Mass who served during Washington's presidency wrote an essay called The Mire of Democracy, that members at the original convention “intended our government should be a republic, which differs more widely from a democracy than a democracy from a despotism.”
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:08 AM   #80
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The Framers associated democracy with Athens where they had no policy to guide their govt which was a disaster. They associated republic with Rome. They were familiar with monarchy. So they gave us a particular type of republic—one that is a mixed form of government. It has some very undemocratic features and some democratic-leaning. It had features of aristocracy which was our senate. Since the Federal govt was to be limited by a Constitution, the widest array of areas to be governed were left to the states. The more you move down to the local level you get more democratic features. This way people in an area can have a govt more responsive to their needs, wants and or values.

Switzerland would be the closest approximation of a democracy today. It's considered half-direct by some or direct by others. They pass a lot of laws based on referendum though. They a strong national identity though despite all the languages there and it's not large.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:36 PM   #81
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Switzerland's federal government is rather weak though. The canton governments are much stronger. It makes sense because the Swiss confederation is made up of historically city states.

The Founding Fathers were unfamiliar with the Commonwealth of Iceland which had an even more decentralized government then Athens and lasted longer.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:34 AM   #82
jAZ jAZ is offline
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
There are several issues on which I agree with Ron Paul, there are several issues on which I disagree with him. I agree with his sentiment on this one. Democracy doesn't work. That's why we don't use it in America.
You don't appear to be paying very close attention.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:37 AM   #83
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Hey jAZ, how about that NSA? Wild stuff, huh?
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:52 AM   #84
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I really don't understand why anybody would vote PURE capitalism (survival of the fittest is so extreme, you might ask yourself, why form a society at all?)
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:16 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
You don't appear to be paying very close attention.
Close attention to what? The fact that this country is not and has never been a democracy? The fact that capitalism at least offers some kind of rational control mechanism?
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:08 AM   #86
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I really don't understand why anybody would vote PURE capitalism (survival of the fittest is so extreme, you might ask yourself, why form a society at all?)
Because, for the most part, true free markets serve the people and self-regulate. You can call it a meritocracy.
You guys have something against this idea. The fear you lefties have is that of monopoly power. But when you really look at it, monopoly is a feature of govt—not the market. The Progressives were wrong back in the day about monopoly and they're still wrong about it today.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:11 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Switzerland's federal government is rather weak though. The canton governments are much stronger. It makes sense because the Swiss confederation is made up of historically city states.

The Founding Fathers were unfamiliar with the Commonwealth of Iceland which had an even more decentralized government then Athens and lasted longer.
Actually, we're supposed to be more like Switzerland, at least when you consider this decentralized model and also military interventions. Now our govt attacks the Swiss over their banking.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:39 AM   #88
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:48 AM   #89
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This thread shows the education system has to do more work indoctrinating youth, so we can be a full-blown social democracy aka socialist system.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:21 AM   #90
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Hey jAZ, how about that NSA? Wild stuff, huh?
I'm in the middle on this. Partly because so much misinformation has been out there. Partly because Verizon and others seemed to give away the meta data, which is actually their property and thus their right to do so. I think the root of the problem is partly derived from the agreements that customers sign with companies like Verizon where they seemingly give away this data as part of the contract for service.

I think the entire system is super serious and should be treated that way. By that I mean, very serious oversight.

If your question is ultimately - how does it compare/contract to the Bush years? - I'll quote this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_war...nce_(2001-2007)
The NSA warrantless surveillance controversy (AKA "Warrantless Wiretapping") concerns surveillance of persons within the United States during the collection of foreign intelligence by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) as part of the war on terror. Under this program, referred to by the Bush administration as the "terrorist surveillance program",[1] part of the broader President's Surveillance Program, the NSA was authorized by executive order to monitor, without search warrants, the phone calls, Internet activity (Web, e-mail, etc.), text messaging, and other communication involving any party believed by the NSA to be outside the U.S., even if the other end of the communication lies within the U.S. Critics, however, claimed that it was in an effort to attempt to silence critics of the Bush Administration and their handling of several hot button issues during its tenure. Under public pressure, the Bush administration ceased the warrantless wiretapping program in January 2007 and returned review of surveillance to the FISA court.[2] Subsequently, in 2008 Congress passed the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which relaxed some of the original FISA court requirements.
During the Obama Administration, the NSA has officially continued operating under the new FISA guidelines.[3] However, in April 2009 officials at the United States Department of Justice acknowledged that the NSA had engaged in "overcollection" of domestic communications in excess of the FISA court's authority, but claimed that the acts were unintentional and had since been rectified. [4]


...

The exact scope of the program is not known, but the NSA is or was provided total, unsupervised access to all fiber-optic communications going between some of the nation's largest telecommunication companies' major interconnected locations, including phone conversations, email, web browsing, and corporate private network traffic.[6] Critics said that such "domestic" intercepts required FISC authorization under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.[7] The Bush administration maintained that ... the warrant requirements of FISA were implicitly superseded by the subsequent passage of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF).[8]
The key here is that such spying, if it is going to be permitted, must have aggressive oversight. I'm not real clear how aggressive the FISA oversight really is right now, but whatever it is, it's FAR more than what Bush tried to do.

Once you put that oversight in place, I think we can debate the merits of the program. I'm not real sure I understand enough to support or oppose the actual program itself. But I'm certain that it's a serious issue that (1) should be debated and (2) carries a serious risk for abuse.

Or in short, "Wild stuff".
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