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View Poll Results: If you had to choose only one of these, which would it be?
Democracy 20 35.09%
Free market capitalism 37 64.91%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-06-2007, 03:03 PM  
jAZ jAZ is offline
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If you were forced to choose between democray and free market capitalism...

... which would it be?

I know it may seem like an odd juxtaposition of beliefs that in this country typically go hand in hand... but I've noticed a trend in discussions lately that caused me to consider the question in this way.

Seems like an interesting discussion.

If you were forced to choose between living in a society defined by democracy (but for instance, the people voted for communism/socialism) or one defined by capitalism (but public policy is dictated by an autocratic government) which would you choose and why?
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Old 06-22-2013, 04:29 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Well, it sure as hell wasn't the free market that gave us Jim Crow. That was all government.
Yes, government ended slavery replacing it with segregation. Thank god we didn't leave slavery to the markets like some advocate.
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Old 06-22-2013, 05:01 PM   #122
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Let's just be honest and admit that we no longer live in a democracy: this country has evolved in to a kleptocracy.
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Old 06-22-2013, 05:39 PM   #123
jAZ jAZ is offline
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
It's ok. It's not like I expected a response other than something excusing Obama. There's no real value you could place on his opinion because he begins at the end result he wants (to say Obama: Good. Bush: Bad) and then just craft his reponses and thoughts around that.
So, really, is there any value in that?

I just like jabbing him because it's clear that he enjoyed attacking Bush for a lot of the same things Obama's doing.
I bet if I went and looked I could find a thread he started about the illegality of drone strikes.
You are wildly wrong. I'm not excusing Obama when he's wrong. My arguments are generally pretty consistent across both presidents. Go for the gotcha if you like, but I've always been pretty consistent.

The objections I had with Bush were over lying us into war in Iraq, getting rid of FISA, and a whole variety of policy issues that you'd expect I'd agree with one and disagree with the other. And I was arguing while Bush was in office for a lighter footprint approach to fighting in the ME. Sending in light forces. UAVs are as light as it gets at least as far as risk of troops go.

My objections to Obama exist, but the are mostly the converse to the religious rights objects to Bush not banning abortion, etc. He hasn't gone far enough quickly enough on many issues I'd like to see.

But at the end of 8 years, Obama will have overseen a Reagan-like transformation of the nation on so many issues. Personally, I'm 100x more comfortable with the direction of the nation, despite all of the GOP obstruction he's faced. So I keep that in mind as I think about objections I have about him.
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:52 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
It seems you are starting to catch up to the rest of us. That's good. And yes.
It seems that you are still trying to make your poll mean something other than what you posted. It doesn't. You're still wrong.
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:53 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
You are wildly wrong. I'm not excusing Obama when he's wrong. My arguments are generally pretty consistent across both presidents. Go for the gotcha if you like, but I've always been pretty consistent.

The objections I had with Bush were over lying us into war in Iraq, getting rid of FISA, and a whole variety of policy issues that you'd expect I'd agree with one and disagree with the other. And I was arguing while Bush was in office for a lighter footprint approach to fighting in the ME. Sending in light forces. UAVs are as light as it gets at least as far as risk of troops go.

My objections to Obama exist, but the are mostly the converse to the religious rights objects to Bush not banning abortion, etc. He hasn't gone far enough quickly enough on many issues I'd like to see.

But at the end of 8 years, Obama will have overseen a Reagan-like transformation of the nation on so many issues. Personally, I'm 100x more comfortable with the direction of the nation, despite all of the GOP obstruction he's faced. So I keep that in mind as I think about objections I have about him.
Wow. That is some far out moonbat shit, right there.
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Old 06-22-2013, 07:24 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
Yes, government ended slavery replacing it with segregation. Thank god we didn't leave slavery to the markets like some advocate.
You mean government enforced slavery? The one that classified groups of people as property by law. The one that enforced that law on people who rejected the idea of slavery? The government that passed the fugitive slave act because a good minority of the population where actively resisting slavery as an institution?

The free market doesn't see slavery as profitable, in fact it sees it as theft since labor is a market as well. In the long run slavery would of died out because it is much cheaper to simply pay someone to do mechanized labor rather then cloth, feed, provide shelter, and pay to make sure they don't run away.
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:00 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
You mean government enforced slavery? The one that classified groups of people as property by law. The one that enforced that law on people who rejected the idea of slavery? The government that passed the fugitive slave act because a good minority of the population where actively resisting slavery as an institution?

The free market doesn't see slavery as profitable, in fact it sees it as theft since labor is a market as well. In the long run slavery would of died out because it is much cheaper to simply pay someone to do mechanized labor rather then cloth, feed, provide shelter, and pay to make sure they don't run away.
No.

First, the government didn't create slavery. Slavery existed before government existed. Slavery in American existed before the U.S. government existed.

The U.S. government did not appear out of a vacuum. The government was established by people. Those people protected slavery through the constitution. The government passed the fugitive slave act because southern states demanded it because of the constitutional protections of slavery. They wanted their property back. Even the supreme court agreed with that.

Because of constitutional protections, slavery would have taken a long time to die out in America.

If the free market didn't see slavery as profitable, then why did it last as long as it did? Remember, culture and society at the time did not view slaves as humans, but property, similar to the common work horse. The same free market principles that determine the cost of a farm horse applied to a slave. In fact, a horse might be treated better.
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
You are wildly wrong. I'm not excusing Obama when he's wrong. My arguments are generally pretty consistent across both presidents. Go for the gotcha if you like, but I've always been pretty consistent.

The objections I had with Bush were over lying us into war in Iraq, getting rid of FISA, and a whole variety of policy issues that you'd expect I'd agree with one and disagree with the other. And I was arguing while Bush was in office for a lighter footprint approach to fighting in the ME. Sending in light forces. UAVs are as light as it gets at least as far as risk of troops go.

My objections to Obama exist, but the are mostly the converse to the religious rights objects to Bush not banning abortion, etc. He hasn't gone far enough quickly enough on many issues I'd like to see.

But at the end of 8 years, Obama will have overseen a Reagan-like transformation of the nation on so many issues. Personally, I'm 100x more comfortable with the direction of the nation, despite all of the GOP obstruction he's faced. So I keep that in mind as I think about objections I have about him.
No, I'm not wildly wrong. I don't respect your opinion because you've demonstrated you're nothing more than a shill. Everyone here knows it.
If there was a DC poll of the most blind-following shills of a political party you'd finish in the top 3.
You're just a sort of mouthpiece. There's no expectation of any kind of actual honesty in your opinions. You start for the end point, and craft your responses based on that. That's it.
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:58 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post

But at the end of 8 years, Obama will have overseen a Reagan-like transformation of the nation on so many issues. Personally, I'm 100x more comfortable with the direction of the nation, despite all of the GOP obstruction he's faced. So I keep that in mind as I think about objections I have about him.
yeah, what a transformation! The guy is nothing but Republican Lite.
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:00 PM   #130
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yeah, what a transformation!
His objections are that Obama hasn't gone far enough, but that's because of GOP obstructionism. But even still, he's transformed the country.

That's the kind of valuable jAZ opinion we all miss so much.
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:02 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
No.
The U.S. government did not appear out of a vacuum. The government was established by people.
It was created by the states, actually despite the words in the Preamble. There was no mass plebiscite that established the US govt.

Back to the discussion now...
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:06 PM   #132
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The shrinking middle class is making less money than they did 8 years ago! What a transformation!
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:08 PM   #133
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The shrinking middle class is making less money than they did 8 years ago! What a transformation!
Look, jAZ doesn't want to post here anymore, but: George Bush. Republicans.

You're welcome jAZ. Handled that for you.
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:33 PM   #134
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No.

First, the government didn't create slavery. Slavery existed before government existed. Slavery in American existed before the U.S. government existed.
Not the U.S. government. Government in the general sense. Government decided that it was okay to steal the labor of a certain class of people and they would use force to ensure that theft.

Quote:
The U.S. government did not appear out of a vacuum. The government was established by people. Those people protected slavery through the constitution. The government passed the fugitive slave act because southern states demanded it because of the constitutional protections of slavery. They wanted their property back.
This all has to do with government not with the free market.

Quote:
Even the supreme court agreed with that.
Dred Scott case was a horrible decision, just one of many, by the supreme court that violated federalism.

Quote:
Because of constitutional protections, slavery would have taken a long time to die out in America.
It would of died out just as soon as it was economically unviable or socially repellent. Both of which would of happened in the late 1800s.

Quote:
If the free market didn't see slavery as profitable, then why did it last as long as it did? Remember, culture and society at the time did not view slaves as humans, but property, similar to the common work horse. The same free market principles that determine the cost of a farm horse applied to a slave. In fact, a horse might be treated better.
Culture and society don't always do what makes the most economic sense. If you looked at the richest parts of the world circa the 1860s, the places that were the richest didn't have slavery and were industrialized. In fact they hadn't had slavery or serfdom for decades or centuries. The reason why slavery continued to exist was societal momentum due to the fact when the America's were first settled there was a lack of population to do the work to cash in on tobacco and later cotton. Once that population mark was hit, slavery became increasingly less profitable. In fact slavery was becoming increasingly less common in areas of the south that weren't growing cotton because having a slave was a net drain compared to hiring seasonal workers or sharecroppers.
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:27 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
No, I'm not wildly wrong. I don't respect your opinion because you've demonstrated you're nothing more than a shill. Everyone here knows it.
If there was a DC poll of the most blind-following shills of a political party you'd finish in the top 3.
You're just a sort of mouthpiece. There's no expectation of any kind of actual honesty in your opinions. You start for the end point, and craft your responses based on that. That's it.
Brilliant. A mouthpiece that doesn't ever talk. You nailed it.
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