Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-19-2007, 12:12 AM  
|Zach| |Zach| is offline
For The Glory Of The City
 
|Zach|'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Kansas City
Casino cash: $6110
The significance of the FBI's law-breaking

The significance of the FBI's law-breaking

A front-page Washington Post article this morning reports that the FBI's illegal use of NSLs was known inside the FBI but continued anyway. The real value of this article is that it keeps this scandal in the spotlight, because there has, thus far, been too little appreciation for just how serious and threatening this rampant FBI lawbreaking really is. The seriousness of this scandal has been, understandably, slightly obscured by the sheer number of other DOJ scandals, so it is worthwhile to note what makes this so significant.

In essence, the FBI and our nation's telecommunications companies have secretly created a framework whereby the FBI can obtain -- instantaneously and without limits -- any information it asks for. The Patriot Act already substantially expanded the circumstances under which the FBI can obtain such records without the need for subpoenas or any judicial process, and it left in place only the most minimal limitations and protections. But it is those very minimal safeguards which the FBI continuously violated in order to obtain whatever information its agents desired, about any Americans they targeted, with literally no limits of any kind.

In order to obtain telephone records within this FBI-telecom framework, FBI agents have been simply furnishing letters to the telecom companies -- not even NSLs, just plain letters from an agent -- assuring the telecom companies that (a) the records were needed immediately due to "exigent circumstances" and (b) a subpoena for the records had been submitted to the U.S. Attorneys Office and was in the process of being finalized. Upon receiving that letter, the telecoms provided any records the FBI requested -- instantaneously, via computer.

At times, they would request records for multiple numbers at once, and sometimes for hundreds of numbers. From the DOJ's IG Report (.pdf):



But the law does not allow any such process. They simply invented it outside of any legal framework in order to get the information they wanted. The FBI and the telecom companies, on their own, have basically created a lawless framework whereby FBI agents can obtain whatever information they ask for with no safeguards.

Worse, in many of these cases where these letters were provided, they were completely false -- both because there were no "exigent" circumstances of any kind and there were no subpoenas that were submitted or being processed. So the FBI agents who submitted these instruction letters repeatedly made false statements in order to obtain highly intrusive records. This is the crux of the abuse:



Far worse still, one of the very few safeguards remaining after the Patriot Act is that the records sought by the FBI must at least relate to an actual national security investigation. That is not just some bureaucratic or petty record-keeping requirement. That is what ensures an actual nexus between the records the FBI obtains concerning your private activities and a real national security purpose. Without that limitation, the FBI just has the free-floating power to compile dossiers on whomever they want.

Yet in hundreds of cases (at least), the FBI sought these records even though there was no pending investigation to which the records related. That means that there were no limits on the telecommunications records which the FBI sought and obtained. They just asked for whatever records they wanted, said whatever they had to say in their lawless letters to get them (even when such statements were false), and the telecom companies instantaneously provided the data to the FBI.

As Lambert at Corrente Wire documented, the FBI not only has the right, but the obligation, to store all of the records it obtains on computer data bases which, as I noted earlier this week, are accessible by tens of thousands of government employees, outside private companies, and even foreign governments. The abolition of most legal safeguards on the power of the Federal Government to obtain and store data about the private lives of American citizens is already itself scandalous, but the fact that the FBI has been continuously violating even those few remaining limitations and instead literally obtaining, with the full-scale cooperation of private telecom companies, any information it asks for -- and making false statements in the process -- is a profoundly disturbing revelation. And one should not even need to explain why that is so.

It really ought to go without saying that the Federal Government does not have as one of its purposes the compiling and storing of data about the private lives of citizens. To the extent such activities are necessary to forward genuine law enforcement or investigative purposes, stringent limitations and oversight are critical, otherwise abuse is inevitable. Yet here, the Federal Government has literally been operating in total secrecy for the last six years, wildly expanding its power to obtain whatever information it wants about any Americans it targets, for whatever reasons, and vast data bases are being created and expanded.

And the ultimate and most pitiful irony of all is that the political movement that claimed to stand for a limited Federal Government is the same movement that has ushered in these invasive and lawless practices, resulting in a Federal Government that has more intrusive and more unchecked power to monitor the private lives of American citizens than, by far, it has ever had before. Independently, this whole system created by the FBI all but prevents any scrutiny, since the failure even to serve NSLs or subpoenas for these records makes it extremely difficult to determine which records were obtained and for what purpose -- a significant reason why the IG's office was unable to conclude whether these illegally obtained records were motivated by criminal intent.

The idea that this is just about some sort of bureaucratic negligence with some petty record-keeping requirements -- a defense being mounted by Bush followers -- is just insultingly stupid. The NSLs have been a source of intense controversy for years. Their potential for abuse is self-evident. And yet the FBI has created systems which allow it to circumvent the few safeguards which exist, and they have exploited that lawless system aggressively and repeatedly -- by making clearly false statements and obtaining records they are legally prohibited from obtaining -- all, according to the Post report, with the knowledge of many FBI lawyers and other managers, at the very least.

If we tolerate our government obtaining and storing information about our personal lives and private activities in clear violation of the laws we have enacted in order to limit those surveillance powers, what don't we tolerate? This lawbreaking is rooted in the same ideology of lawlessness that has governed our country since 2001. For that reason, this is the same question engendered by the NSA scandal, multiple revelations of other law-breaking, and now the revelations (almost certainly still incomplete) that the FBI has ignored the legal limitations on its power to monitor and store data concerning the private lives of American citizens.

-- Glenn Greenwald

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...nsl/index.html
Posts: 45,716
|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.|Zach| has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:28 PM   #46
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Zach)
You were a lot more interesting when you were convinced the world was trying to make your son homosexual.
Well....Zach has officially gone off the deep-end. He thinks I'm the long lost "Hel'n".....now, I guess????

__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:29 PM   #47
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Why would Zack need the KY when you're the one who is getting ass raped in this thread? Apparently you're loose enough to not even know it.
Keep displaying your stupidity, along side his....
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:29 PM   #48
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
Please squeeze
 
dirk digler's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Clinton, MO
Casino cash: $10995
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Zach)
Why does any of this have to occur to bring up the subject?

What the hell is wrong with you that its all about convictions and jail time for discussion to be valid?
Yeah I don't get that either Zach. If you know who or his wife got accused of something the RWNJ's on here would want to stage a execution the minute word came out.
Posts: 48,962
dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:32 PM   #49
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by noa949
....This is a DOJ report, not anything produced by the Democrats in Congress.
So, did this lead the Evening News tonight....I never get to watch; and read about it only after the fact.

I suppose it was a HUGE topic on all the cable channels too, then?

Dang. Sorry I jumped to conclusions. Guess I'll have to go peruse the cable-news sites to "catch up."

Thanks for setting me straight.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:33 PM   #50
Taco John Taco John is offline
12on Paul
 
Taco John's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2001
Casino cash: $8904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
Keep displaying your stupidity, along side his....

Everyone on this board knows that Zach is much smarter than you are. I'm talking everyone. But go ahead and break out your KY remarks again, since that's where your going. I'm more than happy to have friends and allies on this board, despite speaking my mind. You should be so lucky.
__________________
Ehyeh asher ehyeh.
Posts: 51,123
Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:34 PM   #51
Taco John Taco John is offline
12on Paul
 
Taco John's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2001
Casino cash: $8904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
So, did this lead the Evening News tonight....I never get to watch; and read about it only after the fact.

I suppose it was a HUGE topic on all the cable channels too, then?

Dang. Sorry I jumped to conclusions. Guess I'll have to go peruse the cable-news sites to "catch up."

Thanks for setting me straight.


Ah yes... It's not happening if it's not on cable news. How dare you criticize anyone for being stupid, you dope.
__________________
Ehyeh asher ehyeh.
Posts: 51,123
Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.Taco John is blessed with 50/50 Hindsight.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:35 PM   #52
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Zach)
Why does any of this have to occur to bring up the subject?

What the hell is wrong with you that its all about convictions and jail time for discussion to be valid?
Because I've been around long enough that....unless there is an "indictment" or a "conviction" that most politically motivated "disagreements" or differences of opinions, are generally....

much ado about nothing.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:37 PM   #53
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Everyone on this board knows that Zach is much smarter than you are. I'm talking everyone. But go ahead and break out your KY remarks again, since that's where your going. I'm more than happy to have friends and allies on this board, despite speaking my mind. You should be so lucky.
Uh-huh. Yeah. Wow. Well that will send me into therapy.

Don't you feel bad about yourself now. Sheeesh. I'm absolutely DEVASTATED. Devastated beyond belief, man.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:39 PM   #54
noa noa is offline
Band
 
noa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Casino cash: $7219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
Because I've been around long enough that....unless there is an "indictment" or a "conviction" that most politically motivated "disagreements" or differences of opinions, are generally....

much ado about nothing.

But the whole point is that this is not a "politically motivated disagreement or differences of opinion." Its a mandated audit by the DOJ. The Democrats did not initiate this process. The Democrats did not influence this process. The results should be of concern to anyone regardless of party affiliation.
Like I said, you can wait as long as you want to pass judgement. You're entitled to that. Just don't make your excuse "partisan politics."
__________________
Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes, well, he eats you.
Posts: 8,028
noa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitelli
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:40 PM   #55
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
This all is so.....like deja vu, man.....I mean, I should know better; that whole "blue dress" thing that the "Drudge Report" ran with...turned out to be the gospel truth man.

Or did it? I can't remember....
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:41 PM   #56
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by noa949
But the whole point is that this is not a "politically motivated disagreement or differences of opinion." Its a mandated audit by the DOJ. The Democrats did not initiate this process. The Democrats did not influence this process. The results should be of concern to anyone regardless of party affiliation.
Like I said, you can wait as long as you want to pass judgement. You're entitled to that. Just don't make your excuse "partisan politics."
I guess we'll see then. Eh?
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:42 PM   #57
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Ah yes... It's not happening if it's not on cable news. How dare you criticize anyone for being stupid, you dope.
[Your sarcasm meter needs adjusted....]
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:45 PM   #58
noa noa is offline
Band
 
noa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2005
Casino cash: $7219
The PATRIOT Act required that the DOJ review the government's use of National Security Letters. This report is the result of that requirement. They found instances of abuse. Its pretty simple. Read the report, you will find specific abuses detailed by the investigators. Unless you think they are lying or mistaken in every single instance, its pretty clear some abuses occurred. The only thing that would blur that, IMO, is partisan allegiance that keeps you from believing the Republicans could do anything wrong.
__________________
Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes, well, he eats you.
Posts: 8,028
noa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellinoa 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitelli
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:46 PM   #59
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
Please squeeze
 
dirk digler's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Clinton, MO
Casino cash: $10995
I got a question for you Rob. Since you only want to talk about indictments what news is acceptable to post around here?
Posts: 48,962
dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.dirk digler has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2007, 10:47 PM   #60
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler
I got a question for you Rob. Since you only want to talk about indictments what news is acceptable to post around here?
Post whatever you want; but don't whine when some of us make fun of your silly asses.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,077
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:57 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.