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Old 03-19-2007, 12:12 AM  
|Zach| |Zach| is offline
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The significance of the FBI's law-breaking

The significance of the FBI's law-breaking

A front-page Washington Post article this morning reports that the FBI's illegal use of NSLs was known inside the FBI but continued anyway. The real value of this article is that it keeps this scandal in the spotlight, because there has, thus far, been too little appreciation for just how serious and threatening this rampant FBI lawbreaking really is. The seriousness of this scandal has been, understandably, slightly obscured by the sheer number of other DOJ scandals, so it is worthwhile to note what makes this so significant.

In essence, the FBI and our nation's telecommunications companies have secretly created a framework whereby the FBI can obtain -- instantaneously and without limits -- any information it asks for. The Patriot Act already substantially expanded the circumstances under which the FBI can obtain such records without the need for subpoenas or any judicial process, and it left in place only the most minimal limitations and protections. But it is those very minimal safeguards which the FBI continuously violated in order to obtain whatever information its agents desired, about any Americans they targeted, with literally no limits of any kind.

In order to obtain telephone records within this FBI-telecom framework, FBI agents have been simply furnishing letters to the telecom companies -- not even NSLs, just plain letters from an agent -- assuring the telecom companies that (a) the records were needed immediately due to "exigent circumstances" and (b) a subpoena for the records had been submitted to the U.S. Attorneys Office and was in the process of being finalized. Upon receiving that letter, the telecoms provided any records the FBI requested -- instantaneously, via computer.

At times, they would request records for multiple numbers at once, and sometimes for hundreds of numbers. From the DOJ's IG Report (.pdf):



But the law does not allow any such process. They simply invented it outside of any legal framework in order to get the information they wanted. The FBI and the telecom companies, on their own, have basically created a lawless framework whereby FBI agents can obtain whatever information they ask for with no safeguards.

Worse, in many of these cases where these letters were provided, they were completely false -- both because there were no "exigent" circumstances of any kind and there were no subpoenas that were submitted or being processed. So the FBI agents who submitted these instruction letters repeatedly made false statements in order to obtain highly intrusive records. This is the crux of the abuse:



Far worse still, one of the very few safeguards remaining after the Patriot Act is that the records sought by the FBI must at least relate to an actual national security investigation. That is not just some bureaucratic or petty record-keeping requirement. That is what ensures an actual nexus between the records the FBI obtains concerning your private activities and a real national security purpose. Without that limitation, the FBI just has the free-floating power to compile dossiers on whomever they want.

Yet in hundreds of cases (at least), the FBI sought these records even though there was no pending investigation to which the records related. That means that there were no limits on the telecommunications records which the FBI sought and obtained. They just asked for whatever records they wanted, said whatever they had to say in their lawless letters to get them (even when such statements were false), and the telecom companies instantaneously provided the data to the FBI.

As Lambert at Corrente Wire documented, the FBI not only has the right, but the obligation, to store all of the records it obtains on computer data bases which, as I noted earlier this week, are accessible by tens of thousands of government employees, outside private companies, and even foreign governments. The abolition of most legal safeguards on the power of the Federal Government to obtain and store data about the private lives of American citizens is already itself scandalous, but the fact that the FBI has been continuously violating even those few remaining limitations and instead literally obtaining, with the full-scale cooperation of private telecom companies, any information it asks for -- and making false statements in the process -- is a profoundly disturbing revelation. And one should not even need to explain why that is so.

It really ought to go without saying that the Federal Government does not have as one of its purposes the compiling and storing of data about the private lives of citizens. To the extent such activities are necessary to forward genuine law enforcement or investigative purposes, stringent limitations and oversight are critical, otherwise abuse is inevitable. Yet here, the Federal Government has literally been operating in total secrecy for the last six years, wildly expanding its power to obtain whatever information it wants about any Americans it targets, for whatever reasons, and vast data bases are being created and expanded.

And the ultimate and most pitiful irony of all is that the political movement that claimed to stand for a limited Federal Government is the same movement that has ushered in these invasive and lawless practices, resulting in a Federal Government that has more intrusive and more unchecked power to monitor the private lives of American citizens than, by far, it has ever had before. Independently, this whole system created by the FBI all but prevents any scrutiny, since the failure even to serve NSLs or subpoenas for these records makes it extremely difficult to determine which records were obtained and for what purpose -- a significant reason why the IG's office was unable to conclude whether these illegally obtained records were motivated by criminal intent.

The idea that this is just about some sort of bureaucratic negligence with some petty record-keeping requirements -- a defense being mounted by Bush followers -- is just insultingly stupid. The NSLs have been a source of intense controversy for years. Their potential for abuse is self-evident. And yet the FBI has created systems which allow it to circumvent the few safeguards which exist, and they have exploited that lawless system aggressively and repeatedly -- by making clearly false statements and obtaining records they are legally prohibited from obtaining -- all, according to the Post report, with the knowledge of many FBI lawyers and other managers, at the very least.

If we tolerate our government obtaining and storing information about our personal lives and private activities in clear violation of the laws we have enacted in order to limit those surveillance powers, what don't we tolerate? This lawbreaking is rooted in the same ideology of lawlessness that has governed our country since 2001. For that reason, this is the same question engendered by the NSA scandal, multiple revelations of other law-breaking, and now the revelations (almost certainly still incomplete) that the FBI has ignored the legal limitations on its power to monitor and store data concerning the private lives of American citizens.

-- Glenn Greenwald

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...nsl/index.html
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:21 PM   #76
Rausch Rausch is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
Bush sucks. The War in Iraq was misguided. THEREFORE....

Bush is the devil. And he should be impeached.



There. That do it for you, Brad?
I prefer the "Washinton needs an enema" strategy.

NO incumbants.

Support the rise of a 3rd party to act as a wedge between the wing-tards.

Democracy is founded on options.

GIVE ME MORE THAN TWO...
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:35 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
Bush sucks. The War in Iraq was misguided. THEREFORE....

Bush is the devil. And he should be impeached.



There. That do it for you, Brad?
Rob no response to post 62

http://67.18.68.69/BB/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=62
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:48 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Logical
How about the FBIs own admission?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6435891.stm
Heh. That's an easy one... BBC....they make Salon.com look credible.

Admission? You are clearly reading WAAAAYYY too much in to the remarks of an INDIVIDUAL or two. We'll see at the "trial" how things turn out.



There ya go....how'd I do???
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Old 03-20-2007, 12:13 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
Heh. That's an easy one... BBC....they make Salon.com look credible.

Admission? You are clearly reading WAAAAYYY too much in to the remarks of an INDIVIDUAL or two. We'll see at the "trial" how things turn out.



There ya go....how'd I do???
You do realize that quote is from an FBI official not from the BBC, that is why I provided the link.
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:19 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
Heh. That's an easy one... BBC....they make Salon.com look credible.

Admission? You are clearly reading WAAAAYYY too much in to the remarks of an INDIVIDUAL or two. We'll see at the "trial" how things turn out.



There ya go....how'd I do???
Do you remember during the '04 election, when Dan Rather was reporting the incoming results? Do you remember how pathetic and pitiful he seemed when to everyone watching, it was pretty obvious that Kerry wasn't going to pull it out, but Rather kept steadfastly refusing to call it for Bush, saying, "But it's not over yet, there are still a few precincts that haven't reported, there's still a chance"? He wasn't being a responsible reporter. He was just unwilling to face the truth. Right now, you're reminding me of Dan Rather during those moments.
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:28 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwish
Do you remember during the '04 election, when Dan Rather was reporting the incoming results? Do you remember how pathetic and pitiful he seemed when to everyone watching, it was pretty obvious that Kerry wasn't going to pull it out, but Rather kept steadfastly refusing to call it for Bush, saying, "But it's not over yet, there are still a few precincts that haven't reported, there's still a chance"? He wasn't being a responsible reporter. He was just unwilling to face the truth. Right now, you're reminding me of Dan Rather during those moments.
Blah-blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah. BLAH! Blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah. Blah-blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah. BLAH! Blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah. Blah-blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah. BLAH! Blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah. Blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah. BLAH! Blah-blah blah blah-blah blah-blah.
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:36 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwish
Do you remember during the '04 election, when Dan Rather was reporting the incoming results? Do you remember how pathetic and pitiful he seemed when to everyone watching, it was pretty obvious that Kerry wasn't going to pull it out, but Rather kept steadfastly refusing to call it for Bush, saying, "But it's not over yet, there are still a few precincts that haven't reported, there's still a chance"? He wasn't being a responsible reporter. He was just unwilling to face the truth. Right now, you're reminding me of Dan Rather during those moments.

Great analogy... Dead on.
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by noa949
I bet anyone who has been mistakenly abducted and tortured would beg to differ (and it has happened, with proof because we've settled with the victim in at least one incident).
I'm not sure that's a directly relevant comparison. IIRC, the case you are probably talking about did not involve an American and it wasn't the FBI who made the mistake. Maybe you've got a case in mind that I haven't heard of though.
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:40 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by (Zach)
There is well documented empirical evidence well shown even if the opinion is stripped down.

Isn't that what this place is about...

Opinion...statement...link please?

Its all there...I am sorry you don't like it. I am sorry it sheds a poor light on your precious administration that act objective too.

I kind of enjoy the dog and pony show you have to put on in response to it no doubt.
Are you completely unconcerned about spin? This is why so many people like yourself ended up thinking that Bush lied you into war.
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Old 03-20-2007, 09:55 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by noa949
Kotter, this report is based on the investigations and analysis of the Department of Justice, where the leadership is Republican appointees. It's not a witch hunt. I don't think you need to wait for someone to wind up in jail to believe these abuses occurred.
This is not about partisan talking points.
The question that I think Kotter was raising was whether or not the Salon reflection of the documented "abuses" from the report you cited is a true and undistorted reflection or is it a hyped up, deceptively ominous version? I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm betting that it's not the version of the story that the FBI would offer.

I haven't read the report so I don't know, but here is one item that caught my eye in the Salon broadside:

Quote:
In order to obtain telephone records within this FBI-telecom framework, FBI agents have been simply furnishing letters to the telecom companies -- not even NSLs, just plain letters from an agent -- assuring the telecom companies that (a) the records were needed immediately due to "exigent circumstances" and (b) a subpoena for the records had been submitted to the U.S. Attorneys Office and was in the process of being finalized. Upon receiving that letter, the telecoms provided any records the FBI requested -- instantaneously, via computer.
Now I'm no expert on the laws governing how the FBI handles information, but at first glance, it looks to me like this is a case of private organizations (the telecoms) voluntarily providing information as opposed to being compelled via an NSL or court order, but the author gives the impression that this a case of the FBI abusing the NSL process. Which is it? As a telecom customer, I can understand being upset, but should I be upset with the FBI or with my telecom?
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:00 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by patteeu
Are you completely unconcerned about spin? This is why so many people like yourself ended up thinking that Bush lied you into war.
To the uncritical eye, "spin" and propaganda suffice as "facts" and evidence--especially when it reinforces their own biases and assumptions.
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:08 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu

Now I'm no expert on the laws governing how the FBI handles information, but at first glance, it looks to me like this is a case of private organizations (the telecoms) voluntarily providing information as opposed to being compelled via an NSL or court order, but the author gives the impression that this a case of the FBI abusing the NSL process. Which is it? As a telecom customer, I can understand being upset, but should I be upset with the FBI or with my telecom?
I agree with this. I am actually upset more with the telecoms with providing this information without any fight at all. I mean hell maybe you or I can fake some documents and call and pretend we are the FBI and the telecoms would freely hand over anything.
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:55 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu
Now I'm no expert on the laws governing how the FBI handles information, but at first glance, it looks to me like this is a case of private organizations (the telecoms) voluntarily providing information as opposed to being compelled via an NSL or court order, but the author gives the impression that this a case of the FBI abusing the NSL process. Which is it? As a telecom customer, I can understand being upset, but should I be upset with the FBI or with my telecom?

I provided a link to the report earlier in the thread, so if you want to take a look at it, you will see that the report details abuses both by the FBI and by third parties. There are also several types of abuses, some of which have to do with a bad reporting system, so they likely won't occur again since after this report. Overall, I'm not saying that this report details massive abuses. It doesn't. The report is actually evenhanded and acknowledges the difficult position the FBI is in between balancing security with civil rights concerns. Still, the FBI did exceed the parameters of the PATRIOT Act in a few instances that are documented in the report, and the fact that we know about this and are concerned about it has nothing to do with "partisan politics."
This is not "spin" or "propaganda" as Mr. Kotter has repeatedly claimed. Its simply the results of a DOJ report. That's all.
The opinion article Zach posted to start this thread is obviously someone's take on the issue, but the issue itself is quite clearly non-partisan and not propaganda.
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:08 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
To the partisan eye, facts and evidence are reduced to "spin" and "propaganda" -- especially when it reinforces their own biases and assumptions.
FYP
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:17 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Nightwish
FYP
That post actually works to; just not in the context of patteeu's comment.

So GTFO.
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