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Old 07-03-2007, 06:15 PM  
Simplex3 Simplex3 is offline
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I was a fanatic...I know their thinking, says former radical Islamist

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

I was a fanatic...I know their thinking, says former radical Islamist
By HASSAN BUTT
Last updated at 07:38am on 2nd July 2007

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network - a series of British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology - I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.

By blaming the Government for our actions, those who pushed this "Blair's bombs" line did our propaganda work for us.

More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

The attempts to cause mass destruction in London and Glasgow are so reminiscent of other recent British Islamic extremist plots that they are likely to have been carried out by my former peers.

And as with previous terror attacks, people are again saying that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy.

For example, on Saturday on Radio 4's Today programme, the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq."

I left the British Jihadi Network in February 2006 because I realised that its members had simply become mindless killers. But if I were still fighting for their cause, I'd be laughing once again.

Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the July 7 bombings, and I were both part of the network - I met him on two occasions.

And though many British extremists are angered by the deaths of fellow Muslim across the world, what drove me and many others to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain and abroad was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary worldwide Islamic state that would dispense Islamic justice.

If we were interested in justice, you may ask, how did this continuing violence come to be the means of promoting such a (flawed) Utopian goal?

How do Islamic radicals justify such terror in the name of their religion?

There isn't enough room to outline everything here, but the foundation of extremist reasoning rests upon a model of the world in which you are either a believer or an infidel.

Formal Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, does not allow for the separation of state and religion: they are considered to be one and the same.

For centuries, the reasoning of Islamic jurists has set down rules of interaction between Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam) and Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief) to cover almost every matter of trade, peace and war.

But what radicals and extremists do is to take this two steps further. Their first step has been to argue that, since there is no pure Islamic state, the whole world must be Dar ul-Kufr (The Land of Unbelief).

Step two: since Islam must declare war on unbelief, they have declared war upon the whole world.

Along with many of my former peers, I was taught by Pakistani and British radical preachers that this reclassification of the globe as a Land of War (Dar ul-Harb) allows any Muslim to destroy the sanctity of the five rights that every human is granted under Islam: life, wealth, land, mind and belief.

In Dar ul-Harb, anything goes, including the treachery and cowardice of attacking civilians.

The notion of a global battlefield has been a source of friction for Muslims living in Britain.

For decades, radicals have been exploiting the tensions between Islamic theology and the modern secular state - typically by starting debate with the question: "Are you British or Muslim?"

But the main reason why radicals have managed to increase their following is because most Muslim institutions in Britain just don't want to talk about theology.

They refuse to broach the difficult and often complex truth that Islam can be interpreted as condoning violence against the unbeliever - and instead repeat the mantra that Islam is peace and hope that all of this debate will go away.

This has left the territory open for radicals to claim as their own. I should know because, as a former extremist recruiter, I repeatedly came across those who had tried to raise these issues with mosque authorities only to be banned from their grounds.

Every time this happened it felt like a moral and religious victory for us because it served as a recruiting sergeant for extremism.

Outside Britain, there are those who try to reverse this two-step revisionism.

A handful of scholars from the Middle East have tried to put radicalism back in the box by saying that the rules of war devised so long ago by Islamic jurists were always conceived with the existence of an Islamic state in mind, a state which would supposedly regulate jihad in a responsible Islamic fashion.

In other words, individual Muslims don't have the authority to go around declaring global war in the name of Islam.

But there is a more fundamental reasoning that has struck me as a far more potent argument because it involves recognising the reality of the world: Muslims don't actually live in the bipolar world of the Middle Ages any more.

The fact is that Muslims in Britain are citizens of this country. We are no longer migrants in a Land of Unbelief.

For my generation, we were born here, raised here, schooled here, we work here and we'll stay here.

But more than that, on a historically unprecedented scale, Muslims in Britain have been allowed to assert their religious identity through clothing, the construction of mosques, the building of cemeteries and equal rights in law.

However, it isn't enough for responsible Muslims to say that, because they feel at home in Britain, they can simply ignore those passages of the Koran which instruct on killing unbelievers.

Because so many in the Muslim community refuse to challenge centuries-old theological arguments, the tensions between Islamic theology and the modern world grow larger every day.

I believe that the issue of terrorism can be easily demystified if Muslims and non-Muslims start openly to discuss the ideas that fuel terrorism.

Crucially, the Muslim community in Britain must slap itself awake from its state of denial and realise there is no shame in admitting the extremism within our families, communities and worldwide co-religionists.

If our country is going to take on radicals and violent extremists, Muslim scholars must go back to the books and come forward with a refashioned set of rules and a revised understanding of the rights and responsibilities of Muslims whose homes and souls are firmly planted in what I'd like to term the Land of Co-existence.

And when this new theological territory is opened up, Western Muslims will be able to liberate themselves from defunct models of the world, rewrite the rules of interaction and perhaps we will discover that the concept of killing in the name of Islam is no more than an anachronism.
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:18 PM   #2
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Until the "West" realizes the nature of this beast...an ideological and religious zealotry that defines and fuels the hatred and determination of these terrorists, in their quest to maim America, Israel, and "the West" for their support of the infidels....and their "oppression" of brothers in arms...we will continue to engage in self-flagellation and self-doubt in the "bumper sticker" that has become the WOT.

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Old 07-03-2007, 10:23 PM   #3
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In all honesty, even if this is their goal, so what, it changes nothing. We are not going to change their beliefs nor are we going to convert all of the Islamic radicals, hell we are not even going to eliminate all of them. Nukes won't help us in this one. We have to fight a defensive battle and do all we can to prevent the acts of terrorism and to kill the perpetrators of acts that are committed. This will be a never ending effort but it is just part of the world we are living in from this point forward.
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
In all honesty, even if this is their goal, so what, it changes nothing. We are not going to change their beliefs nor are we going to convert all of the Islamic radicals, hell we are not even going to eliminate all of them. Nukes won't help us in this one. We have to fight a defensive battle and do all we can to prevent the acts of terrorism and to kill the perpetrators of acts that are committed. This will be a never ending effort but it is just part of the world we are living in from this point forward.
Thank you, Mr. President.....Mr. George W. Bush.




(a moment of lucidity, for Jim, even if it's unintentional, heh.... )
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplex3
....How do Islamic radicals justify such terror in the name of their religion?

There isn't enough room to outline everything here, but the foundation of extremist reasoning rests upon a model of the world in which you are either a believer or an infidel.

Formal Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, does not allow for the separation of state and religion: they are considered to be one and the same.

For centuries, the reasoning of Islamic jurists has set down rules of interaction between Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam) and Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief) to cover almost every matter of trade, peace and war.

But what radicals and extremists do is to take this two steps further. Their first step has been to argue that, since there is no pure Islamic state, the whole world must be Dar ul-Kufr (The Land of Unbelief).

Step two: since Islam must declare war on unbelief, they have declared war upon the whole world.

Along with many of my former peers, I was taught by Pakistani and British radical preachers that this reclassification of the globe as a Land of War (Dar ul-Harb) allows any Muslim to destroy the sanctity of the five rights that every human is granted under Islam: life, wealth, land, mind and belief.

In Dar ul-Harb, anything goes, including the treachery and cowardice of attacking civilians.

.... most Muslim institutions in Britain just don't want to talk about theology.

They refuse to broach the difficult and often complex truth that Islam can be interpreted as condoning violence against the unbeliever - and instead repeat the mantra that Islam is peace and hope that all of this debate will go away..

...Every time this happened it felt like a moral and religious victory for us because it served as a recruiting sergeant for extremism...

Crucially, the Muslim community in Britain must slap itself awake from its state of denial and realise there is no shame in admitting the extremism within our families, communities and worldwide co-religionists.

If our country is going to take on radicals and violent extremists, Muslim scholars must go back to the books and come forward with a refashioned set of rules and a revised understanding of the rights and responsibilities of Muslims [and]....

... Western Muslims will be able to liberate themselves from defunct models of the world, rewrite the rules of interaction and perhaps we will discover that the concept of killing in the name of Islam is no more than an anachronism.
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter
Thank you, Mr. President.....Mr. George W. Bush.




(a moment of lucidity, for Jim, even if it's unintentional, heh.... )
Well thanks Rob, but my opinion has never changed. Matter of fact this is why I think it is so stupid to be acting as a police force in Iraq. We want to leave a couple of bases there that makes sense to me, but we need to quit being the police in that country.
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
In all honesty, even if this is their goal, so what, it changes nothing. We are not going to change their beliefs nor are we going to convert all of the Islamic radicals, hell we are not even going to eliminate all of them. Nukes won't help us in this one. We have to fight a defensive battle and do all we can to prevent the acts of terrorism and to kill the perpetrators of acts that are committed. This will be a never ending effort but it is just part of the world we are living in from this point forward.
We'd have to nuke too many countries including India, Pakistan, some former Soviet Republics, Indonesia, the Malay Peninsula....it just wouldn't work. Geography does not matter with Islam.

But I sincerely, believe that removing all land troops from Muslim lands completely will go a long way in reducing terror. We can begin with Iraq. I know it sounds extreme, some say we can't or that it's impossible but attacks have subsided in the past when we did...such as when when RR took the Marines out of Beirut. US military could protect oil delivery lines from offshore instead.
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea
We'd have to nuke too many countries including India, Pakistan, some former Soviet Republics, Indonesia, the Malay Peninsula....it just wouldn't work. Geography does not matter with Islam.

But I sincerely, believe that removing all land troops from Muslim lands completely will go a long way in reducing terror. We can begin with Iraq. I know it sounds extreme, some say we can't or that it's impossible but attacks have subsided in the past when we did...such as when when RR took the Marines out of Beirut. US military could protect oil delivery lines from offshore instead.
You can dream but that is never going to happen either, and frankly even if we did still would not matter. Did you really read the thread post?
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
In all honesty, even if this is their goal, so what, it changes nothing. We are not going to change their beliefs nor are we going to convert all of the Islamic radicals, hell we are not even going to eliminate all of them. Nukes won't help us in this one. We have to fight a defensive battle and do all we can to prevent the acts of terrorism and to kill the perpetrators of acts that are committed. This will be a never ending effort but it is just part of the world we are living in from this point forward.
Be defensive??? Bad..bad idea. You can't wait for these guys to pull off something horrific and then go after them. Hell, that tactic worked wonderfully with Bin Laden. You have to take those guys out whenever and where ever possible. You have to go after the money that's funding them and the hierarchy. You have to out fight them on their level. You have to be nastier and more ruthless than they are. That's the only way to beat them and put them on the defensive. And we have to let the military do their ****ing job.
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:24 AM   #10
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Damnit Jim, it's a repost!
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:30 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Logical
You can dream but that is never going to happen either, and frankly even if we did still would not matter. Did you really read the thread post?
Yeah it doesn't matter whether we're in Iraq or not. The simple fact that we're infidels is more than enough reason to kill. That and the fact that appeasement just makes them laugh.
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanm
Be defensive??? Bad..bad idea. You can't wait for these guys to pull off something horrific and then go after them. Hell, that tactic worked wonderfully with Bin Laden. You have to take those guys out whenever and where ever possible. You have to go after the money that's funding them and the hierarchy. You have to out fight them on their level. You have to be nastier and more ruthless than they are. That's the only way to beat them and put them on the defensive. And we have to let the military do their ****ing job.
There are two kinds of defensive (reactive which is what you mistakenly assumed I meant) and progressive where we are using intelligence sources to interrupt and catch the perpetrators like happened recently in the New York airport case.
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:34 AM   #13
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http://justicefornone.com/article.ph...caustHolocaust

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Monday, May 02 2005 @ 03:02 PM PDT
Contributed by: Joey Picador

One of our neighbors is moving. I've been in this neighborhood for about six years now, but didn't really know them very well at all - just waves and nods, mostly.

So I heard the moving van pull up this morning. When I got home this evening I happened to spy my neighbor (he's like 85 years old - I don't know exactly, but he's old, talks and moves very slowly) standing on the sidewalk next to the van. I walked over and shook his hand, and we started talking. I asked him where he was moving, and he said, "Back to Germany."

I had been stationed in Germany for two years while in the military, so I lit up, and commented about how beautiful the country was, and inquired if he was going back because he missed it.

"No," he answered me. "I'm going back because I've seen this before." He then commenced to explain that when he was a kid, he watched with his family in fear as Hitler's government committed atrocity after atrocity, and no one was willing to say anything. He said the news refused to question the government, and the ones who did were not in the newspaper business much longer. He said good neighbors, people he had known all his life, turned against his family and other Jews, grabbing on to the hate and superiority "as if they were starved for it" (his words).

He said he was too old to see it happen right in front of his eyes again, and too old to do anything about it, so he was taking his family back to Europe on Thursday where they would be safe from George W. Bush and his neocons. He seemed resolute, but troubled, nonetheless, as if being too young on one end and too old on the other to fight what he saw happening was wearing on him.

I gotta tell you - it was chilling. I let him talk, and the whole time, my gut was churning, like I had mutated butterflies in my stomach. When he was finished, he shook my hand, gripping it really hard, until his knuckles turned white and he was shaking. He looked me in the eyes, hard, and said, "I will pray for your family and your country." He let go of my hand and hobbled away.

I have related this event to you in the hopes it will serve as a cautionary anecdote about the state of our Union, and to illustrate the path we Americans are being led down by a group of fanatics bent on global economic and military dominion. When a man who survived the fruits of fascism decides its time to leave THIS country because he's seeing the same patterns that led to the Holocaust and other Nazi horrors beginning to form here, it is time for us to recognize the underlying evil inherent in the actions of those who claim they work for all Americans, and for all mankind. And it is incumbent upon all Americans, Red and Blue, Republican and Democrat, to stop them.
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jAZ
http://justicefornone.com/article.ph...caustHolocaust

Holocaust Survivor Leaving US
Monday, May 02 2005 @ 03:02 PM PDT
Contributed by: Joey Picador

One of our neighbors is moving. I've been in this neighborhood for about six years now, but didn't really know them very well at all - just waves and nods, mostly.

So I heard the moving van pull up this morning. When I got home this evening I happened to spy my neighbor (he's like 85 years old - I don't know exactly, but he's old, talks and moves very slowly) standing on the sidewalk next to the van. I walked over and shook his hand, and we started talking. I asked him where he was moving, and he said, "Back to Germany."

I had been stationed in Germany for two years while in the military, so I lit up, and commented about how beautiful the country was, and inquired if he was going back because he missed it.

"No," he answered me. "I'm going back because I've seen this before." He then commenced to explain that when he was a kid, he watched with his family in fear as Hitler's government committed atrocity after atrocity, and no one was willing to say anything. He said the news refused to question the government, and the ones who did were not in the newspaper business much longer. He said good neighbors, people he had known all his life, turned against his family and other Jews, grabbing on to the hate and superiority "as if they were starved for it" (his words).

He said he was too old to see it happen right in front of his eyes again, and too old to do anything about it, so he was taking his family back to Europe on Thursday where they would be safe from George W. Bush and his neocons. He seemed resolute, but troubled, nonetheless, as if being too young on one end and too old on the other to fight what he saw happening was wearing on him.

I gotta tell you - it was chilling. I let him talk, and the whole time, my gut was churning, like I had mutated butterflies in my stomach. When he was finished, he shook my hand, gripping it really hard, until his knuckles turned white and he was shaking. He looked me in the eyes, hard, and said, "I will pray for your family and your country." He let go of my hand and hobbled away.

I have related this event to you in the hopes it will serve as a cautionary anecdote about the state of our Union, and to illustrate the path we Americans are being led down by a group of fanatics bent on global economic and military dominion. When a man who survived the fruits of fascism decides its time to leave THIS country because he's seeing the same patterns that led to the Holocaust and other Nazi horrors beginning to form here, it is time for us to recognize the underlying evil inherent in the actions of those who claim they work for all Americans, and for all mankind. And it is incumbent upon all Americans, Red and Blue, Republican and Democrat, to stop them.
I am kind of wondering if this will survive the Snopes test, but if so it is illuminating.
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:07 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Logical
I am kind of wondering if this will survive the Snopes test, but if so it is illuminating.
Couldn't find anything to refute it on Snopes, but I did learn that Dr. Ruth Westheimer was trained as a sniper for the Israeli army.

If the anecdote is true, I think the gentleman is incorrect in his assessment. I'll be worried if the Bush Administration suspends the election in 2008.
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A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
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