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Old 08-03-2007, 04:45 PM  
Logical Logical is offline
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It is time to wean Iraq from the Military Teat...!!!!

We let them have the time to set up a government.

We worked at training their military.

We helped them establish a new police force.

They rewarded us by taking a vacation. So it is time to start weaning them from our military teat by slowly withdrawing our troops.
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Old 08-03-2007, 04:59 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
We let them have the time to set up a government.

We worked at training their military.

We helped them establish a new police force.

They rewarded us by taking a vacation. So it is time to start weaning them from our military teat by slowly withdrawing our troops.
You have my vote. I agree.
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
We let them have the time to set up a government.

We worked at training their military.

We helped them establish a new police force.

They rewarded us by taking a vacation. So it is time to start weaning them from our military teat by slowly withdrawing our troops.
What an original thought. I'm glad you started a thread.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
We let them have the time to set up a government.
But we have done a particularly poor job facilitating any kind of incentive for the two parties to compromise.

The million dollar question is whether the Iraqi government would become more willing to compromise in the wake of a US withdrawal of forces, or if it would result in a deeper intrenchment in the civil war taking place there.

What do you think? I'm not sold either way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
We worked at training their military.
We did, but we again did a poor job. We totally disbanded the military that was in place for reasons that are either completely beyond my understanding, or for the 5th grader's reasoning that since Saddam was bad, the entire military structure that he had in place must have been bad as well.

The military we have been training, only a fraction of them can do their own fighting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
We helped them establish a new police force.
Another example of the Bush administration's incompetence.

Iraqis have turned out in pretty good numbers to serve in their own police force, but they have fared poorly thus far policing unless they are guaranteed to police their own people. The US doesn't make any such guarantees to those signing up, and in a couple occasions assigned Shi'ite units to Sunni neighborhoods and vice versa, causing entire brigades to quit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
They rewarded us by taking a vacation. So it is time to start weaning them from our military teat by slowly withdrawing our troops.
To be fair, things are changing at the grassroots level, and that initiative needs to be fostered.

It's the occupier's main job to facilitate that kind of independence, sure, and by remaining for the time being, that's what we're doing. But the Iraqis at the top of the political structure have been fairly worthless in helping that, but change comes from the bottom up in these kinds of situations, and eventually it's possible the politicians can turn around.

Right now I believe a solid case can be made either way, as to pull out or remain in Iraq. I was solidly in the "pull out" camp for about 6 months after being a "stay the course" guy since the invasion. But the past couple months I've wavered both ways.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco
What an original thought. I'm glad you started a thread.
Like it is so much better to start threads where you use other peoples articles instead of your own opinions. That is what is wrong with this place now, people spend all their time posting other peoples articles instead of their own thoughts. That is ok some of the time but latelyit seems like that is all that people do in DC for thread starters.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:44 PM   #6
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I don't like really long posts so I will break my response to you up into sections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun
But we have done a particularly poor job facilitating any kind of incentive for the two parties to compromise.

The million dollar question is whether the Iraqi government would become more willing to compromise in the wake of a US withdrawal of forces, or if it would result in a deeper intrenchment in the civil war taking place there.

What do you think? I'm not sold either way....
I don't think it was our responsibility to bring about compromise, if they want a unified country that is their responsibility.

I don't think their is or ever was anything short of leaving Saddam in power to avoid the civil war.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun
...
We did, but we again did a poor job. We totally disbanded the military that was in place for reasons that are either completely beyond my understanding, or for the 5th grader's reasoning that since Saddam was bad, the entire military structure that he had in place must have been bad as well.

The military we have been training, only a fraction of them can do their own fighting.

Another example of the Bush administration's incompetence....
.
These are the same men that taught our own troops how to be soldiers so I am unconvinced they are doing a bad job. I am convinced the Iraqies don't have enough desire. As to the disbanding that was a case of going overboard. Most of their military probably did have loyalties to Saddam and had to be disbanded, the mistake was in not attempting to discover those who would have been loyal to a new government. In the end many of them had to be taken back into the military anyway but now they were disgruntled and did not trust the US.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun
...
Iraqis have turned out in pretty good numbers to serve in their own police force, but they have fared poorly thus far policing unless they are guaranteed to police their own people. The US doesn't make any such guarantees to those signing up, and in a couple occasions assigned Shi'ite units to Sunni neighborhoods and vice versa, causing entire brigades to quit.

To be fair, things are changing at the grassroots level, and that initiative needs to be fostered.

.....
Not starting a slow withdrawal is not going to fix that problem.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:53 PM   #9
CHIEF4EVER CHIEF4EVER is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
These are the same men that taught our own troops how to be soldiers so I am unconvinced they are doing a bad job. I am convinced the Iraqies don't have enough desire. As to the disbanding that was a case of going overboard. Most of their military probably did have loyalties to Saddam and had to be disbanded, the mistake was in not attempting to discover those who would have been loyal to a new government. In the end many of them had to be taken back into the military anyway but now they were disgruntled and did not trust the US.
They were already distrustful Jim. Remember how Bush 41' left the Shia to be effed over by SoDamn after GW1? They staged an uprising with the understanding that our air cover would help them and 41 opted out resulting in the slaughter of a LOT of Shia. Kinda leaves our integrity flapping in the breeze dunnit?
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun
...

It's the occupier's main job to facilitate that kind of independence, sure, and by remaining for the time being, that's what we're doing. But the Iraqis at the top of the political structure have been fairly worthless in helping that, but change comes from the bottom up in these kinds of situations, and eventually it's possible the politicians can turn around.

Right now I believe a solid case can be made either way, as to pull out or remain in Iraq. I was solidly in the "pull out" camp for about 6 months after being a "stay the course" guy since the invasion. But the past couple months I've wavered both ways.
Not sure why you would believe that keeping all our troops their and overextended is going to make their political situation better, can you explain why you believe that?
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIEF4EVER
They were already distrustful Jim. Remember how Bush 41' left the Shia to be effed over by SoDamn after GW1? They staged an uprising with the understanding that our air cover would help them and 41 opted out resulting in the slaughter of a LOT of Shia. Kinda leaves our integrity flapping in the breeze dunnit?
This is a good point, but dismissing them all from the military had to be the final straw.
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Old 08-03-2007, 06:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical
This is a good point, but dismissing them all from the military had to be the final straw.
My understanding is (I may be wrong) that Baathists were excluded from military service. The disbanding of the military itself was only temporary and many volunteered and were accepted back IIRC. Still, we have a long row to hoe if we want them to trust us again.
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Old 08-03-2007, 08:46 PM   #13
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Speaking of gov't teets, I think it's long since overdue to ween American's off that teet too.
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:04 PM   #14
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Speaking of gov't teets, I think it's long since overdue to ween American's off that teet too.
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIEF4EVER
You have my vote. I agree.
I'm voting for him too.
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